Lisa

Good point but than again there are others who step on baby birds on purpose so you can't generalize. Also problematic is that we can't say or know what animals think, we can only make assumptions.

To the war: A lot of people are participating and start to kill complete strangers who don't really have anything to do with the war itself. And as wars are rather repetative I'd say that it indeed is a part of human nature. If there had only been one or two wars I'd agree with you but the world has seen numerous wars so yeah, it does tell us something about our nature.

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Ivan

Lord_Sloth notes that the US hasn't started many wars, asking "When was the last time the US started a war?" Lisa's response is to mention the Iraq War, and then the treatment of Native Americans. THERE'S AN AWFULLY BIG TIME GAP THERE, BUDDY.


Focusing on the negative aspects of a select group of human beings is just as bad as people attacking people from the Middle East after 9/11, or people linking all German people to the Nazis and the Holocaust. For every person who murders, rapes, abuses, or condones any of the above, there is just as many people who would not do that under normal circumstances.

Get bent, Lisa.

Lisa

Stop kissing Lord Sloth's ass, it's gross.
He said that the US rarely started wars which is not true, also if they didn't start it they either participated in it or dealt weapons. The war against Native Americans was something the US started which is why I mentioned it and the Iraq was the most recent war, there.

Also I responded to Lord Sloth only selecting certain groups of animals which act cruel.
I'm not focusing I'm giving examples, when we want glorify humans we should also take into account the bad sides.

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Fred

I'm pretty sure there's no war on Iraq. The war is on Terror, if anyone started confrontation in Iraq, it was Iraqies.

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Kurushimi

While I can only speculate why any human being would take delight in something like this, I'd say it is because they themselves are frustrated or miserable and want to see others the same way, or even worse.

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Lord_Sloth

There is no Lord Sloth in this topic. [/sarcasm]

No1 on this site kisses my ass. Least of all Halcyon.

Not so. I merely selected those I knew of, excluding penguins for some reason...

Quote:

I'm not focusing I'm giving examples, when we want glorify humans we should also take into account the bad sides.

Ahh but you aren't taking in their good sides so you, madame are doing what we call a double standard. Besides, we're merely proving that not everything people do is out of selfishness.

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apocalypse1280

Wow, what a thread. I have to say that both sides have points, but really Lord_Sloths opinions make the most sense IMO. And no I'm not kissing anyones ass, cause its not just him, it's the point of view, he's just the one really running with it. Having said that, I agree with about 95-98% of that point of view. I think there were one or two things that Lisa said that I agreed with, which would make up the 2-5% of the other side that I agree with.

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Empathy

Well, we've seen it happen time and time again throughout human history. Who else can convince us besides ourselves? War is human nature. War is also animal nature. Both do it for the same reasons: territory, rivalries, power, etc. However, humans do it on a much more destructive and remorseless level that the two are incomparable.

And we (well, the humans that actually do) feel bad because you are ending the life of a once-living creature. Sure, it has nothing to do with our own survival, but neither does killing your neighbor. But does that mean one shouldn't feel bad after doing so? Think about it.

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Ivan

Give me a list of all these wars we have started, Lisa. It isn't make sense to continuously come back to Native Americans--which wasn't actually a war--and the Iraq War--and if we consider this a war then we might as well consider all militaristic states at war, as well.

inb4 TRAIL OF TEARS, PONTIAC'S REVENGE, PAYING FOR SCALPS

Lisa

I have confidence in you to be able to google it all by yourself. And while you're at it look up for how many wars and countries the US dealt weapons (Iraq being only one country which bought some which is kind of ironic)

And you're right no war against Native Americans, rather the Holocaust procedure, way better I agree.

To the Iraq issue...you're American and as it seems not the kind who actually uses his brain and doesn't believe in the media blindly. Therefore you're obviously biased, thus I won't discuss this matter with you as I'm just waiting for another remark of the war against terror.

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Masked_Felix

Don't know what you're insinuating, but if anything, the media is biased against Iraq and filters information to that effect.

As for the animals, animals can be nice, fun, etc. There's no denying that. However, the other side of it comes with the astonishing cruelty that they display as well. Eating other animals alive, killing each other (not just different species. Sometimes even in the same pack) for no or little reason at all, ethnic clensing. I've seen dogs light into another out of the blue and tear the odd man out to shreds. All of humanity isn't above this, of course. There are still people in the world who do the same kind of things. It's because humans in general see this behavior as undesirable, however, that it is referred to as animalistic. A.K.A. That behavior is one so savage and cruel, it needs to stay with the animals alone.

As for the topic at hand, if you try hard enough to see that every thing that you do is based on personal gain, then that's what you'll find. Yes, many times people do "good" things entirely for their own interest. Politics and business have shown that more than anything. Parents everywhere that buy their kids Christmas gifts and don't expect or want any in return do so because they want their kids to be happy and have things they didn't. You could argue that that feeling is selfish proof that we only do things because it benefits us, no matter how harmless. You could say that it's about what the parent wants, and thus selfish -- That's about as funny as a government not allowing mandatory federal aid to it's starving populace because it prevents the people's right to freely starve. You're philosophizing and looking into it way too deeply. Of course it makes us happy. Is that wrong? No. Is that selfish? No. Being humans, we're only able to see, think, feel, and act in first person. We can't feel other's happiness, so we feel our own. If someone doesn't plot to get a case of the feel-goods from performing charity work or helping another person out, how can it be selfish? If you're not actively trying to obtain personal gain, but by performing some action it pops up anyway, how can it be selfish? Classifying positive emotions as legitimate collateral for 'selfless' actions and helping others is rarely correct. While such things do occur for material gain, it doesn't happen so much with feelings. I'll give you the point about charities. However, paying money because of guilt isn't exactly the same thing. That's not true selflessness. Selflessness doesn't involve being pressured into something because of guilt. Selflessness would involve something like deciding to support someone in worse conditions than you because you want them to have a chance at life, too. Which brings me to a point about wanting things for other people. Because we want it for others does it make it selfish desires? Hardly. Just because it's you that wants something good for someone else doesn't lessen the value of the good thing. We can't think of it any other way than in first person.


Bah, I wasn't going to enter this, since I know that the posts are going to become more and more painful to read as it spirals downward.

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Empathy

Lisa, I was on your side in this particular discussion, but when you compared to the Native American battles to the Holocaust, of all things, I have to draw the line.

I'm no longer on either side of this argument. I'm on the side of the animals.

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Ivan

To even bring nationality into this is bullshit. It sounds like you're trying to say following the media blindly is a bad thing, which it isn't.

By the way, a good, GOOD chunk of Native Americans passed away without anyone intending for them to pass away. Ever hear about the diseases the white man brought?

I hope you don't hold wars that the United States was simply involved in against them, otherwise most countries are pretty fucked. Also, the United States supplying weapons to various countries isn't terrible (the only time it was bad was when claimed to be "neutral," but whatever) and this kind of shit happens a lot. Would you rather we just straight up run in and bring all of this TERRIBLE AMERICAN INFLUENCE rather than just supply the weapons and let them duke it out themselves?

I don't understand why you're so vigilant against what I say, seemingly just because I am American. I'm not even about to stoop low enough and try to make you look like a bad person due to the history of your country and how people commonly (unfairly) view your people. I'm just going to tell you you're dead fucking wrong and you need to stop in your tracks, re-tie your shoes, and try going in a different direction before you hurt yourself.

ANB

And you thought I was crazy when I speculated you were Jewish.

Ever read "Bury my heart at wounded knee"...?

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