We humans only care about ourselves. - Page 21

**SS2 Vegeto** · 04-28-2008

Kaio, reading your response to my post, you're missing the point. Basically all you're doing is saying "this is why you do crap", and that's that. The argument appears to go something like: This makes you feel good. This makes you feel bad. You feel this. Therefore, you want this. Then, this is why you do this.

Waitaminute.

That just jumped from a premise to a conclusion with no perceivable connection. Yeah. That feels good. Therefore, it is the soul reason for this action taking place? That came out of nowhere. Additionally, it's ignoring the whole issue of why that feels good in the first place. Because you care. What makes people feel good about doing good for other people in the first place? You recognize their value, and have an inner awareness of it. You keep bolding and underlining words like "you want/I want" of "you feel/I feel", but there isn't actually any point. I feel whatever, I want whatever. So what? Nothing you are saying explains and proves why it is felt and/or wanted, proves that the self-gain/self-comfort is the sole reason or the main motivation at all, just that you do get something out of it. So, you get something. Therefore, it was only for that? That's a non-sequitur, right there. It does not follow.

When I said that the other person might as well be me, you took it as revealing of self-motivation, self-care. You're right. I do care about myself. And in caring for myself, I care for others. I might as well be an arm, and they a leg, or two arms, or two legs. If they were literally part of me, you'd have no problem saying I cared about them, as they are me, but figuratively it's a whole different story? My feelings didn't change. You've yet to demonstrate how exactly it's impossible for one part of humanity to care about another part of humanity, being a part of humanity, but are rather closed off from the whole in their own universe capable of only caring about one part of humanity. When a person stubs their toe, the person, in their entirety, feels the pain. You'd say a person cares about their own toe, because it's theirs, but now you give the body of humanity individuality and feel the story's been re-written. I care about their feelings the same as if they were my own, which is why I would experience many of the emotions that I do. That is what caring is.

I recall someone mentioning not having much gratification in smothering a bombshell with their body. I'll mix it up a bit. If an atheist dies, a person who does not believe in an afterlife, in their mind, they will simply cease to be. If such a person were to consciously make the decision to sacrifice their life for another, they would have to be a superb idiot to think of any personal gratification, satisfaction, from such a thing. They are gone. There is no gratification. There is no satisfaction. The feelings do not exist. They do not exist. There is nothing. No one would deny this while holding to those beliefs. Death is just the end. And yet they go to their deaths believing this, for the sake of another. That they had only cared about themselves just doesn't add up.

Lastly, you speak of this world view of yours as if it is just the answer, a fundamental truth to be acknowledged. But not only is it not observable without the ability to see into the hearts and souls of other people, but it is neither testable without both being each and every person that exists and having the ability to totally ignore one's biases and mental blocks and look in from an outside neutral perspective at the same time to weigh each and every action that takes place. It's not properly observable, it's not testable, and in being both untestable and unobservable it certainly can't be conclusively disproven either. It just flunked all the tests needed to qualify it as a theory. In the end, it is simply a personal philosophy, a world view, nothing more, nothing less. In claiming individual understanding of the true and inner natures of countless billions, one should not be surprised at all if such a world view is not taken as seriously as they may believe it deserves, when the majority would claim differently about themselves, either.

-----

On the subject of this orgins stuff, for clarification, the creationist standpoint would not be that God endured the passing of an infinite series of events, as this would be viewed as bizarre and inconceivable, but rather that he predates time, and therefore, there was only his existence. "The ultimate", or what have you. The concept of "infinity" is indeed an impossibility by all reason, a contradictory concept, an imagination that cannot properly even be imagined. Personally, I'd say a concept that can't be conceptualized properly is fairly useless. Also consider that by laws of cause and effect, a law universally accepted and followed in every field of science, the effect is never quantitatively "greater" nor qualitatively "superior" to its cause. This would seem to imply that the first cause of limitless space must be limitless, the first cause of endless time must be endless, the first cause of boundless energy must be omnipotent, the first cause of universal interrelationships must be omnipresent, the first cause of endless complexity must be omniscient, and the first cause of life must be living. If you take it further than that, you could say that the first cause of moral values must be moral, the first cause of human responsibility must be volitional, the first cause of human integrity must be truthful, the first cause of human love must be loving, etc, etc...I don't want to drone on too much about this subject though, since it's already gotten enough aside from the original topic. But we certainly know as much as that the universe coming from nothing is not even an option.

m.collins · 05-01-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Majuub

Why 87% and not just 90% or 85%??

but 87% is still alot, and i still have save some money. but i will also donate money to all the schools i've being to (since i put the teachers through HELL)

Empathy · 05-01-2008

I think he meant, why did you choose such a specific and random number when most folks would've either rounded up to 90% or rounded a few percents off and said 85%?

**Ivan** · 05-01-2008

A REACTION REQUIRES A STIMULUS. GETTING SHOT IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD IS NOT A STIMULUS YOU CAN EASILY REACT TO. YOU MOSTLY JUST DIE. JUST BECAUSE SOMEBODY IS CAPABLE OF SNEAKING UP ON SOMEBODY AND SHOOTING THEM DOES NOT MEAN THAT REFLEXES ARE SCENARIOS YOU THINK OUT, WEIGH THE POSSIBILITIES, AND THEN ACT ON THESE JUDGMENTS IN THE EXTREMELY SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME IT TAKES YOUR BRAIN TO RECEIVE A SIGNAL.

Fred · 05-03-2008

SS2, because you care, not because they care.

Lord_Sloth · 05-03-2008

This thread is still going? Also, in a crisis situation, you usually move without thinking. This includes getting shot at, attacked in any way, car crashes and so on.

How can it be selfish and desired if you didn't consider it?

Empathy · 05-03-2008

I don't believe that you move without thinking. Sure, if you're about to get hit by a car, you'll naturally jump aside, but that's because you know (with your mind) what is about to happen.

Kurushimi · 05-03-2008

No, I disagree. When something is coming at you quickly, you don't have time to conciously think and make a decision. Your inital response, however, is still to get out of the way.

Lord_Sloth · 05-03-2008

Exactly. You didn't WANT to do it. You just did it. You didn't make any decisions.

Empathy · 05-03-2008

That's not true. Every decision you make is because of your conscious. Just because your conscious works in a split-seconds time, doesn't mean your body did it naturally.

Lord_Sloth · 05-04-2008

So whan you stab some1 out of reflex and then appologize, why apologize since you obviously WANTED to?

Empathy · 05-04-2008

In what possible scenario would you stab somebody out of reflex??

(Note the use of two question marks, because of your preposterous statement)

Lord_Sloth · 05-04-2008

lol

You ever hide and then scare some1? They flail wildley. There is no sense in it and it's not very useful for survival and thus, something they DIDN'T want to do. However, when you scare some1 who's combat ready or has been trained, they tend to attack out of panic.

There's a pic on the net of a guy jumping out of a trash can scaring people. The victim at the time punched the HELL out of him in panic before looking to varify ANYTHING!

I shook some1's hand once when I was tired and had been practicing my Hapkido too much. When I grabbed his hand, I chopped his radial (sp?) nerve.

That was rather funny actually.

Kurushimi · 05-04-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empathy

In what possible scenario would you stab somebody out of reflex??

I punch people out of reflex sometimes. =/

Also, I say reflexes such as these are unconcious. If you to conciously think about what to do when a fist is coming at your face...

Well, you get the picture. =/

apocalypse1280 · 05-04-2008

When my sister was a baby, my dad used to throw her in the pool in order to get her used to the water and because she held her breath, instinctively. I doubt she thought about holding her breath when she was like 2 yrs old.

04-28-2008	#301 (permalink)
SS2 Vegeto Super Moderator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: In God's Hands Posts: 9,396 Rep Power: 37	Re: We humans only care about ourselves. Kaio, reading your response to my post, you're missing the point. Basically all you're doing is saying "this is why you do crap", and that's that. The argument appears to go something like: This makes you feel good. This makes you feel bad. You feel this. Therefore, you want this. Then, this is why you do this. Waitaminute. That just jumped from a premise to a conclusion with no perceivable connection. Yeah. That feels good. Therefore, it is the soul reason for this action taking place? That came out of nowhere. Additionally, it's ignoring the whole issue of why that feels good in the first place. Because you care. What makes people feel good about doing good for other people in the first place? You recognize their value, and have an inner awareness of it. You keep bolding and underlining words like "you want/I want" of "you feel/I feel", but there isn't actually any point. I feel whatever, I want whatever. So what? Nothing you are saying explains and proves why it is felt and/or wanted, proves that the self-gain/self-comfort is the sole reason or the main motivation at all, just that you do get something out of it. So, you get something. Therefore, it was only for that? That's a non-sequitur, right there. It does not follow. When I said that the other person might as well be me, you took it as revealing of self-motivation, self-care. You're right. I do care about myself. And in caring for myself, I care for others. I might as well be an arm, and they a leg, or two arms, or two legs. If they were literally part of me, you'd have no problem saying I cared about them, as they are me, but figuratively it's a whole different story? My feelings didn't change. You've yet to demonstrate how exactly it's impossible for one part of humanity to care about another part of humanity, being a part of humanity, but are rather closed off from the whole in their own universe capable of only caring about one part of humanity. When a person stubs their toe, the person, in their entirety, feels the pain. You'd say a person cares about their own toe, because it's theirs, but now you give the body of humanity individuality and feel the story's been re-written. I care about their feelings the same as if they were my own, which is why I would experience many of the emotions that I do. That is what caring is. I recall someone mentioning not having much gratification in smothering a bombshell with their body. I'll mix it up a bit. If an atheist dies, a person who does not believe in an afterlife, in their mind, they will simply cease to be. If such a person were to consciously make the decision to sacrifice their life for another, they would have to be a superb idiot to think of any personal gratification, satisfaction, from such a thing. They are gone. There is no gratification. There is no satisfaction. The feelings do not exist. They do not exist. There is nothing. No one would deny this while holding to those beliefs. Death is just the end. And yet they go to their deaths believing this, for the sake of another. That they had only cared about themselves just doesn't add up. Lastly, you speak of this world view of yours as if it is just the answer, a fundamental truth to be acknowledged. But not only is it not observable without the ability to see into the hearts and souls of other people, but it is neither testable without both being each and every person that exists and having the ability to totally ignore one's biases and mental blocks and look in from an outside neutral perspective at the same time to weigh each and every action that takes place. It's not properly observable, it's not testable, and in being both untestable and unobservable it certainly can't be conclusively disproven either. It just flunked all the tests needed to qualify it as a theory. In the end, it is simply a personal philosophy, a world view, nothing more, nothing less. In claiming individual understanding of the true and inner natures of countless billions, one should not be surprised at all if such a world view is not taken as seriously as they may believe it deserves, when the majority would claim differently about themselves, either. ----- On the subject of this orgins stuff, for clarification, the creationist standpoint would not be that God endured the passing of an infinite series of events, as this would be viewed as bizarre and inconceivable, but rather that he predates time, and therefore, there was only his existence. "The ultimate", or what have you. The concept of "infinity" is indeed an impossibility by all reason, a contradictory concept, an imagination that cannot properly even be imagined. Personally, I'd say a concept that can't be conceptualized properly is fairly useless. Also consider that by laws of cause and effect, a law universally accepted and followed in every field of science, the effect is never quantitatively "greater" nor qualitatively "superior" to its cause. This would seem to imply that the first cause of limitless space must be limitless, the first cause of endless time must be endless, the first cause of boundless energy must be omnipotent, the first cause of universal interrelationships must be omnipresent, the first cause of endless complexity must be omniscient, and the first cause of life must be living. If you take it further than that, you could say that the first cause of moral values must be moral, the first cause of human responsibility must be volitional, the first cause of human integrity must be truthful, the first cause of human love must be loving, etc, etc...I don't want to drone on too much about this subject though, since it's already gotten enough aside from the original topic. But we certainly know as much as that the universe coming from nothing is not even an option. __________________

05-01-2008	#303 (permalink)
Empathy (22) Super Saiyan 3 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Parts, Unknown Posts: 2,039 Rep Power: 28	Re: We humans only care about ourselves. I think he meant, why did you choose such a specific and random number when most folks would've either rounded up to 90% or rounded a few percents off and said 85%? __________________

05-01-2008	#304 (permalink)
Ivan Moderator Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Halcyon Posts: 3,279 Rep Power: 131	Re: We humans only care about ourselves. A REACTION REQUIRES A STIMULUS. GETTING SHOT IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD IS NOT A STIMULUS YOU CAN EASILY REACT TO. YOU MOSTLY JUST DIE. JUST BECAUSE SOMEBODY IS CAPABLE OF SNEAKING UP ON SOMEBODY AND SHOOTING THEM DOES NOT MEAN THAT REFLEXES ARE SCENARIOS YOU THINK OUT, WEIGH THE POSSIBILITIES, AND THEN ACT ON THESE JUDGMENTS IN THE EXTREMELY SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME IT TAKES YOUR BRAIN TO RECEIVE A SIGNAL.

05-03-2008	#305 (permalink)
Fred (25) Kami of Earth Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New York Posts: 4,049 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 83	Re: We humans only care about ourselves. SS2, because you care, not because they care. __________________

05-03-2008	#306 (permalink)
Lord_Sloth (29) Great Lord of Worlds Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Douglasville Georgia Posts: 8,636 Rep Power: 78	Re: We humans only care about ourselves. This thread is still going? Also, in a crisis situation, you usually move without thinking. This includes getting shot at, attacked in any way, car crashes and so on. How can it be selfish and desired if you didn't consider it? __________________ Lord_Sloth's Theme Song Lord_Sloth's "ASK ME ANYTHING!!!" Go ahead, click and ask whatever you want. "You can't help it. You can't fight it. You can't accept it. You just have to leave everything related to it because you couldn't get what you chose." ~Evil Dark Knight http://cristgaming.com/pirate.swf

05-03-2008	#307 (permalink)
Empathy (22) Super Saiyan 3 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Parts, Unknown Posts: 2,039 Rep Power: 28	Re: We humans only care about ourselves. I don't believe that you move without thinking. Sure, if you're about to get hit by a car, you'll naturally jump aside, but that's because you know (with your mind) what is about to happen. __________________

05-03-2008	#308 (permalink)
Kurushimi Naruto Ranked (23) Akatsuki Junior Partner Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Realizing everyone you know someday will die. And that you will meet up with them in heaven. Posts: 2,554 Rep Power: 121	Re: We humans only care about ourselves. No, I disagree. When something is coming at you quickly, you don't have time to conciously think and make a decision. Your inital response, however, is still to get out of the way. __________________ The worst part is when sidewalk cracks are out-of-sync with your natural stride. ~ xkcd GENERATION 4: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

05-03-2008	#309 (permalink)
Lord_Sloth (29) Great Lord of Worlds Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Douglasville Georgia Posts: 8,636 Rep Power: 78	Re: We humans only care about ourselves. Exactly. You didn't WANT to do it. You just did it. You didn't make any decisions. __________________ Lord_Sloth's Theme Song Lord_Sloth's "ASK ME ANYTHING!!!" Go ahead, click and ask whatever you want. "You can't help it. You can't fight it. You can't accept it. You just have to leave everything related to it because you couldn't get what you chose." ~Evil Dark Knight http://cristgaming.com/pirate.swf

05-03-2008	#310 (permalink)
Empathy (22) Super Saiyan 3 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Parts, Unknown Posts: 2,039 Rep Power: 28	Re: We humans only care about ourselves. That's not true. Every decision you make is because of your conscious. Just because your conscious works in a split-seconds time, doesn't mean your body did it naturally. __________________

05-04-2008	#311 (permalink)
Lord_Sloth (29) Great Lord of Worlds Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Douglasville Georgia Posts: 8,636 Rep Power: 78	Re: We humans only care about ourselves. So whan you stab some1 out of reflex and then appologize, why apologize since you obviously WANTED to? __________________ Lord_Sloth's Theme Song Lord_Sloth's "ASK ME ANYTHING!!!" Go ahead, click and ask whatever you want. "You can't help it. You can't fight it. You can't accept it. You just have to leave everything related to it because you couldn't get what you chose." ~Evil Dark Knight http://cristgaming.com/pirate.swf

05-04-2008	#312 (permalink)
Empathy (22) Super Saiyan 3 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Parts, Unknown Posts: 2,039 Rep Power: 28	Re: We humans only care about ourselves. In what possible scenario would you stab somebody out of reflex?? (Note the use of two question marks, because of your preposterous statement) __________________

05-04-2008	#313 (permalink)
Lord_Sloth (29) Great Lord of Worlds Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Douglasville Georgia Posts: 8,636 Rep Power: 78	Re: We humans only care about ourselves. lol You ever hide and then scare some1? They flail wildley. There is no sense in it and it's not very useful for survival and thus, something they DIDN'T want to do. However, when you scare some1 who's combat ready or has been trained, they tend to attack out of panic. There's a pic on the net of a guy jumping out of a trash can scaring people. The victim at the time punched the HELL out of him in panic before looking to varify ANYTHING! I shook some1's hand once when I was tired and had been practicing my Hapkido too much. When I grabbed his hand, I chopped his radial (sp?) nerve. That was rather funny actually. __________________ Lord_Sloth's Theme Song Lord_Sloth's "ASK ME ANYTHING!!!" Go ahead, click and ask whatever you want. "You can't help it. You can't fight it. You can't accept it. You just have to leave everything related to it because you couldn't get what you chose." ~Evil Dark Knight http://cristgaming.com/pirate.swf