Hiei vs. Vegeta - Page 4

**Majuub** · 05-04-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord_Sloth

I would think you meant everything, obviously as I am convinced that the Human Realm=Universe. Again, if it was just the planet, they woulda said Earth.

Human Realm/Plane of Existance/Dimension

Seriously, it's a weird way to view things. =/

The universe is infinite it's weird he can destroy something with no end. His power is limitless...??

Lord_Sloth · 05-04-2008

I'm only quotin the show on this.

Devilz · 05-04-2008

lol, YYH and DBZ versus are the most stupidest thing ever.

Vegeta wins.

And last I checked, humans only lived on Earth. So the human realm should refer to the earth...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord_Sloth

Again, if it was just the planet, they woulda said Earth.

Human realm sounds cooler.

Kurushimi · 05-04-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Majuub

Seriously, it's a weird way to view things. =/

The universe is infinite it's weird he can destroy something with no end. His power is limitless...??

The universe isn't infinite...
And I agree with Sloth: Human Realm = Universe

Also, even if it referred to Earth, Hiei would still win. It's complete and utter speculation to say the only reason Vegeta didn't destroy Earth by powering up is because he had better chi control than YYH characters. There's no reason to believe this.

**Majuub** · 05-04-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurushimi

The universe isn't infinite...
And I agree with Sloth: Human Realm = Universe

Also, even if it referred to Earth, Hiei would still win. It's complete and utter speculation to say the only reason Vegeta didn't destroy Earth by powering up is because he had better chi control than YYH characters. There's no reason to believe this.

How can there be a end to the universe??

ANB · 05-04-2008

The universe is expanding. Expanding.

**Zer0** · 05-04-2008

This is all I'm quoting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto

And no, it clearly, clearly doesn't mean earth. The ningenkai and the makai, for example, are clearly expressed in the manga as separate dimensions and realms of existence, and ningenkai is never expressed in a planetary sense. Ningenkai, in legend, traditionally was earth, serving as a hunting ground for the yokai from makai, yet only because as far as they knew back then earth was the mortal realm. It was everything physical to them. Yu Yu Hakusho clearly expresses ningenkai in a dimensional sense, a realm of existence...and no; a planet hardly passes as a "realm of existence". The sense it is used in, in Yu Yu Hakusho (as in legend, however our awareness of a physical world expanding far beyond our own planet) is the separation between the physical world and the spiritual world...i.e. characters who can "destroy the ningenkai" (a feat actually highly insignificant in comparison to the power of individual's such as Raizen) can destroy our physical world. Certainly not refering to a planet.

This was basically discussed thoroughly way back when on Invision Power Boards, mfg 3.0, and it always inevitably lead to the same conclusions: the ningenkai equals the mortal universe, and thus Yu Yu Hakusho characters can destroy entire plains of existence...and Dragonball characters can't; the makai is essentially a multi-dimensional plat-form of infinite infinities, that can apparantly be destroyed with absolute utmost ease by Raizen in his prime....which Dragonball characters certainly can't do; a few characters in the series appear to be nigh omnipotent, which certainly can't be said for Dragonball characters.

ANB · 05-04-2008

I'm not buying the Ningenkai being synonymous with the realm of DBZ.

1-When the group of S-class demons that came to Raizen's funeral powred-up, they could be felt around Makai. And yet, there were no stones being levitated. There was no blast-crater. We see that when Cell used his full-power the entire Earth TREMBLED.

2-Ningenkai in the YYH world is clearly much, much weaker than the one in DBZ. I already pointed out that Sensui's power-level (using "less-than-1/5") is equal to Goku's during his fight with Vegeta. If you look at the feats, Goku caused boulders to rise while Sensui caused the cave wall to collapse (again, with less than 1/5). And we know Vegeta was a planet-buster with a power-level of 18,000--zilch compared to how it is later.

Ningenkai in DBZ=Much much more stable than it is in YYH.

3-If you want to talk about dimensions then I can seal the arguement right here: All YYH characters are weaker than Super Boo because they could do nothing to the barrier between human and demon planes and yet Boo created a hole with his screaming.

4-The universe does not go on forever; ergo Raizen did no shake something that goes on forever. If he did he'd be the most powerfull being in the fictional universe :/ On top of that, Koenma Jr. told Yusuke that Reikai conquered half of a floor of Makai. So it's clear he meant a metaphor when describing Makai as "endlessly vast and deep". Regardless, you cannot divided infinite/2 and Makai being endless wouldn't be synonymous with an EXPANDING UNIVERSE.

Gazooya · 05-04-2008

As ANB explained, you can only compare physical feats, considering that the two universes of Dragonball and Yu Yu Hakusho do not comply with the same set of rules and boundaries. They just don't.

Lord_Sloth · 05-04-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANB

Ningenkai in the YYH world is clearly much, much weaker than the one in DBZ. I already pointed out that Sensui's power-level (using "less-than-1/5") is equal to Goku's during his fight with Vegeta. If you look at the feats, Goku caused boulders to rise while Sensui caused the cave wall to collapse (again, with less than 1/5). And we know Vegeta was a planet-buster with a power-level of 18,000--zilch compared to how it is later.

Ningenkai in DBZ=Much much more stable than it is in YYH.

3-If you want to talk about dimensions then I can seal the arguement right here: All YYH characters are weaker than Super Boo because they could do nothing to the barrier between human and demon planes and yet Boo created a hole with his screaming.

2 can play at this. The world in YYH is weaker you say? Maybe the writer just gives GODS more credit than the pushovers they are in DBZ? Enma wanted a barrier up so it's up and damn near impossible to breach in YYH.

ANB · 05-04-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord_Sloth

2 can play at this. The world in YYH is weaker you say? Maybe the writer just gives GODS more credit than the pushovers they are in DBZ? Enma wanted a barrier up so it's up and damn near impossible to breach in YYH.

Lol, exactly. Toriyama is simply much more liberal in wanting to make the readers stare in awe at how powerful the characters are.

Realistically, it should not have taken until Perfect Cell, who's is well into the billions, to cause the entire Earth to shake. If we look at it from a plot perspective, there'd be no point in the heroes trying to save an Earth that doesn't exist anymore, no...?

And Kami-Sama IS the God of Earth. He created the dimension of time so you can't make that argument. We see that even gods can be surpassed in DBZ. The Kaioshin was in awe of the Super Saiyajins' power. And in DBZ, Enma is at best several times stronger than Radditz of all people. Again, Toriyama is much more liberal and his plot rather straightforward in comparison (simply "saving the world").

Old Rai · 05-05-2008

Wow. You guys like your DBZ vs. YYH here! I have a few thoughts that I have to type. I should note that these are not arguments, as much as just thoughts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gazooya

As ANB explained, you can only compare physical feats, considering that the two universes of Dragonball and Yu Yu Hakusho do not comply with the same set of rules and boundaries. They just don't.

I seriously couldn't agree with you more. Although what you said is true, this would mean you can't even compare physical feats. That is why many here are saying that YYH Human Realm = DBZ Main Universe. Unless we establish a common point of comparison, not even physical feats can be compared. This is the number one reason I dislike straight vs. threads: unofficial points of comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANB

2-Ningenkai in the YYH world is clearly much, much weaker than the one in DBZ. I already pointed out that Sensui's power-level (using "less-than-1/5") is equal to Goku's during his fight with Vegeta. If you look at the feats, Goku caused boulders to rise while Sensui caused the cave wall to collapse (again, with less than 1/5). And we know Vegeta was a planet-buster with a power-level of 18,000--zilch compared to how it is later.

Ningenkai in DBZ=Much much more stable than it is in YYH.

I only really want to know one thing: How did you come to the conclusion that Sensui was equal to Goku during the Saiya-jin Saga? I'm just curious. I bolded the "less-than-1/5th" reference because it is a mistranslation, almost as common as the "1/10th" mistranslation. In the original Manga, Sensui said that even with his power "nearly fully suppressed", he was still affecting the Human Realm like he was. He also said that his only weakness was the fact that he couldn't even let loose half of his power in the Human Realm, as his power was just far too much for the Human Realm to handle/contain.

That's all he said in that scene. He never said anything about being at "1/5th" or "1/10th" or "destroying planets" or any of the other common mistranslated statements I've seen around boards lately. Any conclusion based on Sensui being able to "destroy the planet" at "1/5th" or "1/10th" is falsely grounded, as it is not faithful to the Manga. According to the original Manga, Sensui would destroy the Human Realm/physical universe/plane of existence if he released 50% of his power, which puts him on a level closer to the end of DBZ. I just thought I'd point this out, as I have heard similar statements based on mistranslations of the Manga.

I just hope that wasn't what you based it on, that's all. If it wasn't, then I'm very interested to hear how you did it. *smiles*

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANB

3-If you want to talk about dimensions then I can seal the arguement right here: All YYH characters are weaker than Super Boo because they could do nothing to the barrier between human and demon planes and yet Boo created a hole with his screaming.

Does the fact that Kuwabara could "rip apart dimensions" (according to Sensui and Seaman in my Viz manga) and destroy the Kekkai barrier make him both on par with Super Boo and also stronger than any demon in YYH? No, that's silly.

Itsuki could tear holes between dimensions quite easily himself. Shortly after the fight between Demon Yusuke and Sensui, Itsuki makes a rip between his realm of darkness to the Demon Realm. Itsuki obviously can make holes in dimensions like Super Boo, but again, I don't think that is synonymous with power. Itsuki didn't strike me as being as powerful as Super Boo, lol.

But Itsuki couldn't get through the Kekkai, because it was a special barrier. The whole "Super Buu screaming holes in dimensions" argument doesn't quite make sense to me in proving that DBZ > YYH in power. I don't think ripping dimensions has anything to do with power when comparing the two universes, given how YYH deals with it. But if it did have something to do with power, the fact that a demon who casually makes rips in dimensions cannot get through the Kekkai does cast serious doubt on whether or not Super Boo could get through it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANB

4-The universe does not go on forever; ergo Raizen did no shake something that goes on forever. If he did he'd be the most powerfull being in the fictional universe :/ On top of that, Koenma Jr. told Yusuke that Reikai conquered half of a floor of Makai. So it's clear he meant a metaphor when describing Makai as "endlessly vast and deep". Regardless, you cannot divided infinite/2 and Makai being endless wouldn't be synonymous with an EXPANDING UNIVERSE.

Well, Raizen supposedly shook all of Makai at mealtimes. Whether or not Makai is endless can be called into question, I agree with you on that. My only question here is: are you basing that solely on Koenma's statement? If there is something more, I'd appreciate it if you'd share it with me.

Koenma's statement...in my Viz Manga, Koenma says Reikai partly holds sway over the first level of Makai, along with the other demons. He seemed to be comparing his ruling power with that of the other demonic rulers on that level. I read that scene as Koenma showing a graph, showing just how little ruling power he had over Makai. It makes him look, as Yusuke said, "a pretty crappy ruler." The fact that we never see any of Reikai's holdings in Makai nor do we truly hear of them also casts doubt on the interpretation that Koenma literally conquered and covered half of the physical territory in Makai.

Because I have read the YYH Manga in that light, I personally think that each level of Makai was endless. In the Anime and the Manga, Koenma says Makai is "endlessly deep and vast". I always thought "endlessly deep" referred to the number of levels, which means the "endlessly vast" can only refer to each level itself. Given that there was no end seen to a level of Makai, there is no proof that each level of Makai wasn't endless. It's more proof that is was endless. The lack of material evidence for levels of Makai not being endless, and the weight of the material in favour of levels of Makai being endless makes me think Makai is indeed endless. But it is entirely a matter of opinion, if you ask me, given how vague Yoshihiro Togashi was on the nature of the realms in YYH. I only think Makai is endless. I don't know if it is, which is why I'm asking you the question in the first place.

However, I do not think shaking Makai can be compared to shaking the physical universe. They are two different planes of existence. The complete model for the physical universe as we know it is euclidean, which makes the whole universe (observable + unobservable) infinite in theory. But in terms of the observable universe (galaxies, dark matter, dark energy), yeah, the universe is limited and is still expanding.

ANB · 05-05-2008

1-Until viz releases the volume where this happens and clarifies how much power Sensui can use in Ningenkai, we should either use 1/5, 1/10, or the translation you use "<50%". My arguement, using "1/5" comes from mangafox.com (which is unofficial, as is yours).

Also, I compared him to Saiyajin saga Goku because when Goku powered up, the country-side shook and enormous boulders levitated and moved. It's in the manga, but I don't know what chapter (volume 4). The best Sensui could conjure was "affecting the cave walls" and likewise cuasing boulders to rise.

Goku: 8,000+
Sensui (1/5 translation) full-power: 40,500
Sensui (1/10 translation): 81,000
Sensui (<50%): 324,000 I decided to just go for 40%

2-No, Super Boo ripped the dimensional barrier "with his chi" (Volume 41) and Piccolo was absolutely astonished. In fact, direct quote has him saying "I can't believe it! He blew a hole through the dimensional barrier with his chi!". He didn't even think it was possible, and earlier in the same chapter Piccolo stated that the barrier between the Room of Spirit and Time and Earth was sealed off by a limit of 48 hours. Once those were up, you cannot escape. Boo defied that by simply getting frustrated at this fact and screaming.

The dimension-cutting sword is a special sword and does not necessarily reflect Kuwabara's strength; otherwise, he wouldn't have fared so bad against Sensui. It's not even like his other swords that channel their energy from his spiritual rei-ki essence. It's magic. Itsuki can travel though dimensions, not rip them apart (correct me if I'm wrong). Regardless, the Kekkei cannot even be broken by A or S class demons (the reason why it was made) and yet Super Boo can break one.

Ergo, Super Boo>>>A and S class demons. But I agree with you and Gazooya that there are a lot of inconsistencies between the two series'. Toriyama made his Earth much more stable so that he could show off how strong his characters are (SSJ3 Goku blowing up a tenth of the planet with a casual chi-blast, Gohan's Kamehameha being solar-system sized, Perfect Cell trembling the planet by powering-up). On the other hand, YYH creator has a much more complex plot and Ningenkai is very weak compared to the world of DBZ.

3-I have argued with various members about Makai endless theory. I've already said why I think the floors don't go on forever (Koenma saying Reikai has control of half). BUt since you want me to bring new material to the table, what about the fact Mukuro is always talking about "territory"...? Surely they have some clue about how large it is.

I agree that Togashi was to vague and because Makai is essentially a giant basement, it cannot be compared to our universe. Furthermore, if it were hypothetically going on forever then it simply CAN'T be comapared to Ningenkai. Ningenkai is limited in size (although very huge) and is currentyl expanding. You can't divide infite/2 and that is why I think the floors (at the very least) do not go on forever. This would explain more about Koenma's statement: Maybe there are indeed an endless number of floors and thus an endless amount of space (consequently). It isn't necessary that the floors themselves go on, that explains it imho.

What am I getting at...? Well, there's no proof Raizen shook all of Makai going by the manga. In fact, translaters often fumble over this isolated panel that has little to do with the plot. I read one that said "Oh, the king's stomach is rumbling. You can set your watch to it". Others claim that he is shaking the "entire plane of existence" but...that would mean if he started fighting he'd tear the reality apart! If he could affect it that much just with his stomach, and we know there is physical effects on the terrain when they fight and power-up, Makai would be thrown into chaos whenever he fights. One thing I'd like to point out is that Yusuke said "what is that sound?" not "why is everything shaking?". Perhaps it is just a very loud noise and a little rumble here and there. He didn't even notice the stomach growls until they were well into the country side.

But those are unofficial translations. Like the Sensui's percentage issue, we should wait until viz translates it. That is literally all I have to say on the matter.

--Akuma No Barrakku

05-04-2008	#47 (permalink)
Lord_Sloth (28) Lord of Worlds Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Douglasville Georgia Posts: 7,934 Rep Power: 38	Re: Hiei vs. Vegeta I'm only quotin the show on this. __________________ Lord_Sloth's Theme Song Brawl Code=0645-5430-9597==Wii Code=7378-2898-7096-7882==PSN=Lord_Sloth "You can't help it. You can't fight it. You can't accept it. You just have to leave everything related to it because you couldn't get what you chose." ~Evil Dark Knight http://cristgaming.com/pirate.swf

05-04-2008	#54 (permalink)
Gazooya (21) Majin Warrior Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Yoo Ess uf A. Posts: 1,664 Rep Power: 24	Re: Hiei vs. Vegeta As ANB explained, you can only compare physical feats, considering that the two universes of Dragonball and Yu Yu Hakusho do not comply with the same set of rules and boundaries. They just don't. __________________