Mystic_Gohan

He did what he always did at the start. I'm not sure if you can interpret it as all out or not. But it's not as if you can pull punches in a genjutsu, am I right? It was only after Sasuke broke out of Tsukuyomi, that Zetsu states that "He's getting serious". And that was when he ditched the genjutsu for ninjutsu.

I guess being untouchable for so long made him arrogant. Arrogance is weakness. In a fight, it does not always apply to physical attributes, but mental as well.

Did you ever think that Sasuke could've been showing humbleness? Orochimaru saw obtaining Itachi's body as an impossible dream. But killing him, is a different story. And he was intending on doing it eventually, just like every other member from Akatsuki. Now that I think about it, Orochimaru only lost to Itachi because he was trying to obtain his body, and that left him vulnerable. If it was an actual fight to the death, the outcome wouldn't have been so highly in Itachi's favor, I can assure you.

I'm not sure if you can call Amaterasu "The greatest ninjutsu" if it actually hurts the user.

I think Sasuke had many oppurtunities to finish Deidara off but held back, even when Deidara had many advantages, if you look back at the fight. And I don't believe Sasuke had any interest on questioning Tobi... he sliced him threw the midsection to get rid of him, after Tobi was done setting the mines, he was long gone and nowhere be seen, and as Sasuke puts it, Deidara "Likes to talk a lot".

Nikushimi

Do you know what "stated" means? "Itachi pulled his punches. Stated."

Zetsu stated that Itachi was trying not to damage Sasuke's eyes, and really, it's just common fucking sense. Why you feel the need to dispute this, I have no idea; perhaps you've honestly lost it.

In case you haven't noticed, Genjutsu stopped a while ago.

As SS2_Vegeto stated, he underestimated Sasuke and got burned because of it. He had no way of knowing that Sasuke could break Tsukuyomi. Amaterasu was done in desparation after that, and he TOTALLY did not see Sasuke's snake-shedding thing coming.

Orochimaru can use the abilities of his hosts. He's even utilized three elements so far from what we've seen. And if you're implying that Orochimaru could have beaten Itachi if he had been better-informed...just stop. To begin with, Itachi and Orochimaru were both members of Akatsuki, so they would at least have rudimentary knowledge about one another already. Especially since Orochimaru was planning to take Itachi's body, which he would not do to Itachi specifically unless...he knew plenty already. On top of that, Orochimaru outright admitted Itachi's superiority, no conditions, no exceptions. He flat-out said "He is stronger than me". It doesn't get any clearer than that, especially when we actually see the two fight.

Zetsu stated Sasuke had utilized the heat from Amaterasu. Amaterasu is hotter than normal fire, so don't tell me "it wasn't the greatest factor". The whole bloody forest was burning.

Kisame doesn't need Sharingan. He's stronger than Oro, faster than Oro, has better Ninjutsu than Oro, has fecking Samehada, has more chakra than ANYONE in Akatsuki, and has...pretty much been unanimously agreed to be stronger than Orochimaru.

And Kirin itself was bullshit, so don't try to use Itachi's Susano'o as an excuse to try labelling him as a fanservice character. And btw, it wouldn't have even happened if not for the heat from Amaterasu, which was Itachi's Jutsu. So essentially, it was a Jutsu that was designed almost exclusively for Itachi.

So I guess Sasuke was just kidding when he nearly slammed Deidara into his own minefield along with the C2 Dragon.

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Crazy Canuck

Well I'll take the group and I really don't think it's that close... I'll even attempt to make it mathematical

I'll say that Sasuke at this point in time in the manga is at minimum 70% worth of Itachi's power, whom (even in this deprived state) is probably stronger than Kisame by a small margarin. So I'll say in this condition Itachi is 10% stronger than Kisame.

Therefore, Sasuke is roughly 80% of the strength of Kisame. Given that he has Orchimaru and Kabuto to help him, I fail to see how the group does not win this fight. Of course the argument rests on pure speculation and quantifying power levels that do not exist but I think it's a logical argument:

Sasuke is weaker than Itachi but not imaginably so. Itachi is slightly stronger than Kisame. So Sasuke is only slightly to marginally weaker than Kisame and he has the help of the strongest Sannin plus a decently strong ninja with a medical background.

Mystic_Gohan

Itachi did not directly say he was holding back. Actually Zetsu said that, shortly after he stopped using it.

Read above post.

He has to learn them though, learning to utilize them takes time. By the looks of it, Itachi may have been a newbie member at the time. So Orochimaru not realizing his full capabilities is understandable. He spoke of him being stronger in the context of obtaining his body, not in an actual fight. And we do not see the two "fight", all we see is Orochimaru getting caught in a genjutsu. For all we know, Orochimaru could've stepped right infront of him, and attempted the ritual right away. And by the looks of it, that seemed to be the case, just like Itachi underestimated Sasuke, Oro did the same to Itachi.

He said that he was trying to take advantage of Amaterasu "too". That does not make it the greatest factor. Especially if Sasuke's Katon was fired directly towards the atmosphere, while Amaterasu's heat would cool down as it rose. If fired directly, it speeds up the process a whole lot, quite obviously. This was also stated by Zetsu.

Stronger and more chakra, yes. His speed is never been proven to be extraordinary ever, especially when carrying that big sword around, he can't be that fast. We don't know if Samehada can absorb jutsus, we've only seen it eat pure chakra. Plus, if one attribute from a person dominates another's, does not necessarily count the other person out. Orochimaru was able to last against an opponent as powerful as Yonbi Naruto, much stronger than Kisame. So you should stop looking at it through that viewpoint. And I will add: Don't believe the hype, just believe what you see.

Kirin was a pretty well-thought out technique IMO, a first of its kind in the Naruto world. Susano is just a boney statue thingy, it looks ridiculous actually. Sasuke was planning to use it against Team Kakashi and Deidara, so obviously Itachi's Amaterasu is not prequisite, as you so highly believe.

Sasuke was in a really disadvantegeous situation. Interrogation wasn't even an option at the time, it was just avoid getting blown up. To get out of the situation, he tried to get rid of the C2 Dragon and hopefully take Deidara out in the process. Later on, when the tides turn more on Sasuke's favor, the interrogation options pops up again, and so he avoids dealing a lethal blow.

SS2 Vegeto

Because it would have worked against literally anyone else in the world with the probable exception of Madara. The fact that this match-up was a bum-deal for him in that it would end up backfiring with no way of him knowing about it just reflects what happens when you pit their specific abilities against each other - a more accurate way of gauging overall ability would be how they generally would compare to everyone else on average, or maybe better, someone who doesn't really have any noteworthy advantages or disadvantages against either of them, basically measuring their abilities on a neutral basis. And yeah, you can pull your punches with genjutsu if you just dumb it down, especially if it can normally kill someone. Itachi can control what his opponent sees and feels, so there's no reason he wouldn't be able to "pull his punches" in a genjutsu. That doesn't really matter, though, since genjutsu was useless against Sasuke. I did considered going all out not just toying with him using genjutsu, though, especially considering he was just..lounging around on his throne. I mean, so did Zetsu, apparently.

It wasn't so much arrogance as much as it was ignorance, ignorance that he really couldn't help or can't exactly be blamed for either. By all means, it should have worked. It had never not worked, but this time it was different. Like I said, the fact that this match-up was a bum-deal for him in that it would end up backfiring with no way of him knowing about it just reflects what happens when you pit their specific abilities against each other. If you look at their individual strengths, it's not the same

Sasuke is hardly humble in attitude. And nothing suggests that this was the case. It's stated, not contradicted, retracted, questioned, or cast into doubt, therefore it stands. They were on similar levels before Sasuke absorbed his abilities. That's the message that we're given, that's what we have to work with. Next, you realizes taking Itachi's body entails having swallowed him? And again, considering his performance against Sasuke, Orochimaru certainly would have lost in any case. When is it stated he planned to kill every member of Akatsuki? He wanted them out of the way. He planned on having as many of them dead as possible, somehow. And what gives the impression that he planned on ever being able to do anything to Itachi at his current strength? He said Itachi was stronger than him. Stronger than him. He possesses more strength. His strength is greater. Superior is the strength of Itachi to him. That should resolve the issue.

It's been called the greatest ninjutsu in the manga. Was that written for no reason at all?

When Deidara wasn't fighting at full strength. It doesn't reflect the full scope of his abilities. And Sasuke had massive advantages on his side. Even if he wanted to kill him badly at C4, if his strength and the way his abilities worked remained the same, but there was no elemental advantage or disadvantage on either side, he would die. And I don't see that Sasuke had many opportunities to kill Deidara at all once he went airborne. Also, he only needed to keep one of them alive, whereas the other would be a nuisance, and I don't see any reason that he would have cared which one it was as long as he could get the information he needed. And Tobi was still around, btw.

Itachi apparently knows exactly what Orochimaru's ninjutsu is and how much chakra they use, though. It's evident that Orochimaru underestimated the extent of Itachi's powers, but it stands to reason that they had at least a decent understanding of what one another could do. And, next, what are talking about? Orochimaru was speaking about Itachi being stronger than him in the context of Itachi being stronger than him. He didn't say anything like "he's stronger than my current host", or "he's stronger than me when I'm not aiming to kill, but rather only trying to perform the ritual in order to take his body as a host", he said.."He is stronger than I". And, he's not actually stronger than him if he can only win when he's not trying to excessively damage his body. But apparently he is. Because he's stated to be simply stronger.

His speed was more than a match for Gai's, at 30%. And he could visually follow his movements at sixth gate, even though he couldn't respond in time. Kisame is ridiculously fast. And no, Yonbi Naruto is most certainly not stronger than Kisame. We've dealt with that, again, and again, and again...we believe the evidence.
...
In fact, I've explained it twice in this topic. Once on the last page.

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Mystic_Gohan

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto Because it would have worked against literally anyone else in the world with the probable exception of Madara. The fact that this match-up was a bum-deal for him in that it would end up backfiring with no way of him knowing about it just reflects what happens when you pit their specific abilities against each other - a more accurate way of gauging overall ability would be how they generally would compare to everyone else on average, or maybe better, someone who doesn't really have any noteworthy advantages or disadvantages against either of them, basically measuring their abilities on a neutral basis. And yeah, you can pull your punches with genjutsu if you just dumb it down, especially if it can normally kill someone. Itachi can control what his opponent sees and feels, so there's no reason he wouldn't be able to "pull his punches" in a genjutsu. That doesn't really matter, though, since genjutsu was useless against Sasuke. I did considered going all out not just toying with him using genjutsu, though, especially considering he was just..lounging around on his throne. I mean, so did Zetsu, apparently.

Well the fact is, Sasuke was pwning him in their little Genjutsu war early on. Sasuke was always one step ahead of him, regardless of whether he was trying hard or not, it doesn’t make Itachi look good at all, quite the opposite. Even Sasuke didn’t look like he was going all out early on either… it was only after he removed his cloak, that you get the idea, that the feeling out process is finished and both of them were ready to take the battle more seriously. Zetsu couldn’t see Itachi “lounging around his throne”, since that was part of the genjutsu.

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto It wasn't so much arrogance as much as it was ignorance, ignorance that he really couldn't help or can't exactly be blamed for either. By all means, it should have worked. It had never not worked, but this time it was different. Like I said, the fact that this match-up was a bum-deal for him in that it would end up backfiring with no way of him knowing about it just reflects what happens when you pit their specific abilities against each other. If you look at their individual strengths, it's not the same

It’s a little mix of both. Itachi’s statements made him sound more arrogant though by boasting his Mangekyou Sharingan.

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto Sasuke is hardly humble in attitude. And nothing suggests that this was the case. It's stated, not contradicted, retracted, questioned, or cast into doubt, therefore it stands. They were on similar levels before Sasuke absorbed his abilities. That's the message that we're given, that's what we have to work with. Next, you realizes taking Itachi's body entails having swallowed him? And again, considering his performance against Sasuke, Orochimaru certainly would have lost in any case. When is it stated he planned to kill every member of Akatsuki? He wanted them out of the way. He planned on having as many of them dead as possible, somehow. And what gives the impression that he planned on ever being able to do anything to Itachi at his current strength? He said Itachi was stronger than him. Stronger than him. He possesses more strength. His strength is greater. Superior is the strength of Itachi to him. That should resolve the issue.

When has he ever boasted about himself so highly? He always keeps his mind towards his priorities and if he ever has boasted of something, it is of the Uchiha clan, which he holds with high regard and honor. More so, he’s shown at one point and time that he barely even cared about himself and that killing Itachi was more important than his own life, even giving his own body to Orochimaru, if necessary. Actually, Sasuke stated that Orochimaru was weaker than him prior to absorbing his abilities. In fact, Sasuke was secretly hiding his true strength in Orochimaru’s presence, to not give him the impression that he had surpassed him. After Orochimaru and Yonbi Naruto’s fight, Kabuto lets it slip, and hints at an ulterior motive, saying Akatsuki is the true enemy. Orochimaru planned on assassinating Sasori, who is a very highly skilled Akatsuki member as we all know. He did not plan on taking his body, he planned on killing him, and he had no doubts on getting the job done. That itself shows the circumstantial differences between the intent on taking the user’s body and actually killing him. In fact, the only reason Orochimaru was able to catch Sasuke in his inner dimension, was because of the paralyzing vapors that his form released when his bodily fluids were exposed. Yes, he said he was stronger than him, but in that whole situation, he was talking about obtaining an Uchiha body. Since there were only 2 left, he said he could not take Itachi’s body because Itachi is to strong for him to do so, while Sasuke is still a kid, and the much easier option. Just because one is stronger does not automatically give them the victory over their opponent. This has been shown numerous times, whether Orochimaru vs. Sasuke at the Forest of Death, or Orochimaru vs. Yonbi Naruto. So you should stop looking at it through that perspective.

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto It's been called the greatest ninjutsu in the manga. Was that written for no reason at all?

Eh, where was it written that? Nevertheless, it’s merely an opinion, especially for the time being.

He could’ve killed him here, here, or maybe here. But of course he cared, he cannot question what is not there. Sasuke had no idea where Tobi was after he set the mines, and his main focus was the guy trying to blow him up on his little clay bird.

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto Itachi apparently knows exactly what Orochimaru's ninjutsu is and how much chakra they use, though. It's evident that Orochimaru underestimated the extent of Itachi's powers, but it stands to reason that they had at least a decent understanding of what one another could do. And, next, what are talking about? Orochimaru was speaking about Itachi being stronger than him in the context of Itachi being stronger than him. He didn't say anything like "he's stronger than my current host", or "he's stronger than me when I'm not aiming to kill, but rather only trying to perform the ritual in order to take his body as a host", he said.."He is stronger than I". And, he's not actually stronger than him if he can only win when he's not trying to excessively damage his body. But apparently he is. Because he's stated to be simply stronger.

On the same page, he was speaking on the subject of obtaining an Uchiha body and that Itachi’s is too far out of his league to even try. But that does not concern them in an actual fight... just read what I posted above.

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto His speed was more than a match for Gai's, at 30%. And he could visually follow his movements at sixth gate, even though he couldn't respond in time. Kisame is ridiculously fast. And no, Yonbi Naruto is most certainly not stronger than Kisame. We've dealt with that, again, and again, and again...we believe the evidence.

Not really, he moved around using the wave of water he created and he just blocked Gai’s kick with his big Samehada, that isn’t a good demonstration of speed. Visually follow? Gai went right in front of him, he didn’t even have to move his eyes. I still stand that his speed is nothing special at all…

I could probably try arguing why Yonbi Naruto is stronger than Kisame but that would be going too off subject, and I don’t want to start another big argument in this thread, where it doesn’t belong. But if you want, you could make another thread where we could argue about that.

Raven

Gai had to go all out at six gates just to match and edge out Kisame. Rock Lee went from getting whooped by Gaara to whooping him with just five gates. The amount of power and speed that comes from the gates are unimaginable. Anyone fighting Gai in gated forms obviously has a good amount of speed. That's my thought.

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Crazy Canuck

How is this even arguable? Sasuke has forced Itachi to use his strongest jutsu and even in his deprived state admits to Sasuke's strength. Sasuke is at least 70-80% as strong as Itachi who is the dominant individual in his relationship with Kisame, As such, there is no way in hell Kisame beats this group. In fact, thanks to fanservice Sasuke could beat Kisame by himself most likely

Mystic_Gohan

It wasn't much of a fight after Gai activated the gates, it was pretty much over a few seconds later.

Raven

Logically, I would say if it was fifty percent Kisame vs. Gai, Gai would probably die due to using the eight gate. But get this, it says the eighth gate provides its user with power surpassing a hokage, which would mean Kisame would be twice as fast/powerful as a hokage around 100%. I would say at that level, that his speed would indeed be tremendous. I don't really see how anyone can argue that he is slow or not powerful. Speed and power are his attributes. If he had intelligence in the bag as well, it's likely he'd be stronger than Itachi.

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Mystic_Gohan

We know he's strong. But nothing proves that he's fast.

SS2 Vegeto

They both saw through each other's genjutsu. It didn't last long on either of them, and it basically kept bouncing back and forth, until Sasuke basically went "I can see it already!" and it stopped. Neither of them looked any better than the other in that exchange. Sasuke could see through Itachi's genjutsu. Itachi could see through Sasuke's genjutsu. Eventually, they called it quits because of how pointless it was. That's with basic sharingan, so it's a reasonable assumption that Itachi is capable of more potent genjutsu with the mangekyo sharingan. Can Sasuke manage anything on the level of Tsukuyomi with basic sharingan? It's something beyond the capacity of basic sharingan. However, if he can just manage to break it, it'll hurt Itachi. Itachi was up against one of the two people in the world where this would have been a possibility. As I mentioned earlier, it just reflects what happens when you pit their specific abilities against each other.

Well, he was arrogant, but that wasn't necessarily the cause of his downfall. There really wasn't any reason for him to believe that it would have failed either way.