Mystic_Gohan

To give the readers some ideas, make them think, to speculate? I'm no mangaka, but it's pretty common device.

Were you? I swear you were saying something about him being collapsed. Where as in the Deidara fight, he fits that word more accurately.

Itachi was trying his best, but he had much more potential. There's no official reason yet why he performed the way he did. But you can't take Zetsu's statements as conclusive, when they're merely speculative at the moment as well.

Even though he visually displayed taking his eyes during the genjutsu? It could've very much well have been a test, I mean why protect something if it is weak and will eventually succumb on its own regardless, he had to make sure his actions weren't in vain.

You really didn't have to say it, I already knew it was engraved in your head. :/

Speculated he took "severe damage", and even if he did, there's no reason given as of yet, how. He wasn't holding back, did he state he was holding back? You only accept it as true because that is what you want it to be, even though it is not officiated yet.

Kurushimi

To give them correct ideas I hope. He put it there so we'd know that Itachi was severly injured. It wasn't just a lie seeing as it's not been disproven or even contested.


Wrong wording I guess.



All I'm saying is that Zetsu's statement was made to inform the readers. Not to trick them.


I'm a little confused. Didn't Itachi attempt to take Sasuke's eyes in Tsukiyomi? He'd know that it isn't real and was just trying to torture Sasuke into submission. Also, he obviously wasn't thinking in that way as he would've killed Sasuke long ago if he was. He killed people far stronger.



Meh, I just like Itachi more. Is that a crime?

I suppose the "holding back" thing could be speculation. >_>

But Zetsu's statement was made for a reason. Kishimoto didn't just toss it out there to get us to think. It's obvious he said it to inform us of the real reason's of Itachi's downfall. Why he was severely injured is still to be seen. Also, there is no reason to believe that statement is false, other than biasm.

Besides, even if you deny the fact that he was "severly injured" you just can't deny that he had not fought anywhere near his best, and still fought so well.

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~ Credit to Ultimate_Gohan for the signature.

Mystic_Gohan

Alright, so if he is "severly injured"... that doesn't mean it was contributed by external forces, as many so happen to believe. It could very much be his own fault.

It can be interpreted in other ways though, not just the one you feel ideally suits it best, in your own opinion.

Tsukuyomi is used to break down one's spirit, to mentally collapse the victim. Obviously he couldn't have taken his eyes in the illusion, but it would've left Sasuke more vulnerable afterwards. He kept Sasuke alive hoping he would follow what he said and obtain the Mangekyou, but it didn't work out as planned.

No.

But saying in an argument "just because... it's Itachi dammit!" is a no no...

If you always see things through that viewpoint... prepare to be more disappointed, than if you didn't keep an open mind. There doesn't always have to be some intricate meaning behind something, sometimes it just means what it means. I swear Niku is a common enthusiast of that viewpoint as well... but obviously it doesn't always turn out the way he thinks it will either.

Kurushimi

Not really. Zetsu referred to "before" the battle started so, however he was injured, it happened before he fought Sasuke.

You can't interpret it much differently. No matter what you say, when it comes down to it, Itachi wasn't able to fight near his best. I dont see why you don't want to accept this.


Most likely. I guess he meant to knock him unconcious and then place in the Mangekyou techniques himself, as Sasuke didn't get them on his own.


I'm not really being close minded. Think about it. Zetsu's statement has not been disproved or contested in anyway. There's no intricate meaning to it. It's one simple fact. "Itachi was injured before the battle." There's no reason to question this fact at all.

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~ Credit to Ultimate_Gohan for the signature.

SS2 Vegeto

That whole part of the fight was genjutsu, so I don't see your point in bringing that up. After Sasuke heard what he wanted to hear, he would've killed him the next time he had the chance. As for Susano'o, just because it harms Itachi's body doesn't automatically mean that it was responsible for him coughing up blood and soon collapsing. Zetsu had already noted the apparent risks of using Susano'o, when he reacted to this with surprise and confusion. Afterwards, we are told that what we saw was definitely not Itachi's true power, that coughing up blood, and even his performance from earlier on in the fight was unusual, and that it was not just because of overuse of the Sharingan. These statements nullify the assumption that it was all just a side affect of Itachi use of Mangekyo Sharingan. To ignore it despite it having not been contradicted, retracted, or questioned in canon is simply a baseless picking and choosing of what parts of canon to acknowledge, and that kind of analysis is worthless.

I'm sure this has been brought up countless times. Kakashi questioned why Itachi hadn't just killed him in Tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi can kill. If you kill the mind, you kill the body. Dead.

That's because he expected to have Itachi fooled and stop Amaterasu. If he didn't stop Amaterasu, Sasuke may not have been able to escape. I could say Itachi had seen through Sasuke's plan as soon as he put it to action, in fact, as half the kawarimi's body was gone, and Itachi had in fact wanted to protect Sasuke.

Seven of eight snake heads were beheaded by Itachi when Orochimaru attacked him with Yamato no Jutsu. Orochimaru was facing Itachi directly. If he got hit by it while talking and couldn't react, that's his own fault. Sasuke was absolutely helpless against Susano'o, and back-peddling into a wall was his idea of "being on the defensive".

The manga disagrees with you. Also, plucking eyes out in genjutsu=/=killing. Yeah, he certainly wanted Sasuke to think he wanted to take his eyes and kill him. It was stated that Itachi did not want to kill Sasuke, but protect him. Until anything other than that is revealed, that's all there is to it.

Because that only speaks for ninjutsu. In fact, it only speaks partially for ninjutsu. It speaks for who can use ninjutsu better, not necessarily who is stronger in the area of ninjutsu overall, because even if the other cannot use ninjutsu as well, if having better ninjutsu allows them to beat an opponent who uses ninjutsu better in the area of ninjutsu, then overall they are stronger in the area of ninjutsu. It says nothing for taijutsu. It says nothing for speed. It says nothing for genjutsu. It says nothing for intelligence. It says nothing for stamina. It says nothing for hand seals. It says nothing for anything but ninjutsu, and doesn't necessarily say everything for ninjutsu.

He exerted enough power to break free. That does not mean he is stronger in the area of genjutsu. He has never been shown capable of producing himself anything near to the level of Tsukuyomi. A weaker martial artist could out-grapple a considerably stronger one, but still lose in the end. Overpowering an illusion does not make you better at genjutsu unless you could create an illusion of the same strength. However, that was all that was needed to end the genjutsu exchange, because if genjutsu wouldn't work on either side, there's no purpose. In fact, that any further exchange of genjutsu was called pointless evidences the fact that Sasuke's genjutsu wouldn't work on Itachi either, otherwise, it wouldn't be pointless for Sasuke.

He was never shown to have an upper hand. Never. Further exchange of genjutsu was pointless for both of them. Breaking out of the opponent's strongest illusion does not make you better with illusions, as they may be able to break out of your illusions too and cast stronger ones than you. Neither does breaking our of the opponent's strongest illusion indicate that you are capable of creating stronger ones. Again, I use the two martial artists as an analogy. You may be able to work your way out of holds, but your opponent can just as easily do the same, and he can be better at grappling. Sasuke may be able to escape it, but he's not gonna be able to use something like Tsukuyomi without Mangekyo Sharingan. The last part is irrelevant, as it never happened.

But that's irrelevant to the question of their power, as it never happened. I don't see it's relevance to this topic in the least.

He has it now, but is now short Orochimaru and the Curse Seal (which alone knocks him down 10x).

If it's "yes, that probably wasn't called for", okay, if you realize it I'm not gonna be harsh about it, if that's "yes, that does make you bigots", then you are behaving as a bigot at present.

Other than the fact that overuse of the Sharingan was dismissed as the root problem in canon...loss of eye-sight and side affects of the Mangekyo are results of using the Sharingan...until anything else is revealed in canon, this stands unchallenged.

The fact that it was stated that Itachi desired to protect Sasuke? The fact that there is an uncontested statement declaring that what we saw was "definitely not Itachi's true power", and that this seeming awkward isn't a valid argument?

I don't necessarily agree, if what we saw had been a far cry from Itachi's normal strength. I see kirin as being Sasuke only great shot, in such a case, and it's very questionable under these circumstances if Sasuke would ever be able to pull it off. Even so, why are we talking about Sasuke with the Mangekyo Sharingan?

I'm not overlooking the comparison, I'm just not considering it separate from the individuals personal ability. It's part of their body, not a weapon external to them. >_>

I readily agree that Sasuke is a better genjutsu user, but not that he is just generally better in the area of genjutsu. He was the "expert" with the "weaker weapon". Itachi was the "amateur" with the "greater weapon". I'm saying the usefulness of his "weapon" is enough to compensate for the difference in skill. In the end, though, even if his weapon puts him somewhat ahead in overall genjutsu ability, neither has any use for genjutsu as their powers are both sufficient in seeing through each other's illusions.

Madara stated himself that Itachi had risked everything to protect his little brother, so obviously he knew. That's not speculation. Madara stated himself that it was exactly what Itachi wanted, that the truth about him should disappear with his death. That's not speculation. So evidently, none of the first part is speculation. The second part certainly has something to do with it, because if he knows Itachi won't kill Sasuke, knows that Itachi won't tell Sasuke the truth, and knows that Sasuke is hellbent on killing Itachi, what do you think he's gonna predict?

But he doesn't have the same jutsu. Those ifs are pointless. Say "If Sasuke had the same jutsu as Itachi" or "If Itachi had no jutsu and one leg", and the same point applies. Itachi doesn't lack jutsu, and has both legs attached. Skill that isn't backed by strength only takes you so far. If Itachi's quantity managed to trump Sasuke's quality, then guess what? He's stronger in the area of ninjutsu, even if he's not as proficient.

- So because Sasuke thought that he was in a secure position after outmatching Deidara at C2, which is all that scan indicates, Deidara is on the clear losing end of the whole fight? Non-sequitur - it does not follow.

- It's not as simple as just not breathing - he has to stay outside the range of the explosives, otherwise it may still enter the body. That he was able to avoid it the first time is completely beyond the point anyway, as Deidara saw through Sasuke's fake death, the Deidara on top of the bird had been a clay clone all along (as Deidara also plans ahead), and ultimately Sasuke wasn't able to escape C4 the second time, and had he been the exact same strength with the jutsu that functioned the exact same way, only of a different elemental affinity, he would have died, and there would've been nothing he could do about it.

- His plan was battle strategy, the way their elemental affinities matched up in the first place was luck, a game of rock paper scissors like I said. Is the rock, in this game, inherently better than the scissors are? The scissors can beat paper, which beats the rock. There is no "better" there. Elemental affinity is not an ability in and of itself, it is simply an attribute. Let's say we have here, two Sasuke's. One, is the canon, raiton/katon elemental Sasuke. The other has the exact same abilities of the exact same strength, that work exactly the same way - but the element is different. This relationship between the elemental affinities of these two Sasukes is completely nuetral - their elements do not have any advantages or disadvantages over each other. Neither is in any way better than the other. Put them both in the fight with Deidara. The one with the lightning affinity performs exactly as he did in canon. The other, unable to diffuse the bombs within his body, dies. The power of both Sasukes are identical. Deidara's power never changed. Both of their powers measure up exactly the same next to Deidara's. One died. The other didn't. Why? Deidara was faced with his weakness. If you're going to say that one is stronger, and the other wasn't, you'll have to ignore the fact that both Sasukes are exactly the same strength. Here's an example that you should understand well, as you appear to be a pokemon fan. You are in a pokemon battle. Your fire pokemon attacks with a fire attack. It's not very effective. Enemy water pokemon uses a water attack. It's super effective. Your pokemon faints. Your fire pokemon's stats were all higher. It was stronger. But it lost when faced with it's weakness.

- I've replied to this too many times. He had an alternate option if his first option didn't work. His first option did work. So, either way, it worked, but he still faces the same stuff afterwards - and at the time he said it, he couldn't do it, unless it was Manda. Also, toying with someone doesn't entail having the crap beaten out of you to pull out a victory.

- I can't understand how it's even possible to maintain that they weren't even close in power, considering Sasuke couldn't move by the time it was over, and was bedridden thereafter, despite the natural advantages that he had.
- Again, the opponent being able to diffuse your bombs when all you use for attacks are bombs is a far, far worse disadvantage than losing genjutsu when you also have high rank ninjutsu, lightning speed, weapons skills, the ability to greatly augment your power and physical toughness, and unlike matching elemental affinity, Deidara's eye isn't a rock paper scissors games, in that it's an actual technique that works for it's intended purposes when activated - a genjutsu counter, as valid as the sharingan - it's not playing on strengths and weaknesses, based on a weird system of chance, it simply sees through any genjutsu up to the level of Sharingan when they are used. It's affect being consistent, it can actually be counted towards Deidara's abilities.
- Whereas he could've beheaded him, he wouldn't have been standing there in the first place if he wasn't of lightning affinity, because Deidara's C4 would have killed him.

Yes, I certainly would. Your bombs can be diffused when you only attack with bombs, and the enemy's genjutsu is handicapped, although they have plenty of other things to rely on, yet the enemy is still unable to move when it's over, and bedridden thereafter? I believe the evidence strongly suggests it.

Orochimaru used the power of the Curse Seal. He emerged from the curse mark, and the curse mark was gone thereafter. It hasn't reappeared after of anything. He no longer has it. And, of course, Orochimaru's still around inside of him, since he's subsisting in spiritual form - even if you run out of chakra, your spirit doesn't die.

Sasuke has no chakra after Deidara fights him either, and Orochimaru didn't emerge of even show any signs of beginning to resurface then. This only happened when Sasuke was both out of chakra and tried to push for something else forcibly, basically thrusting Orochimaru's consciousness to the surface. When Sasuke's had no power before, Orochimaru never had the power to do anything either.

You wouldn't be very correct, outside of the power to determine it's fate.

Jutsu require activation. They require you to access them of your volition. Sasuke regenerated his injuries as he was resting. They acted as if they were a natural function of his body, but they were for Orochimaru - never Sasuke. Sasuke noted that he picked up this ability from Orochimaru. He didn't have them before or anything, yet it was now just a part of the way he worked. Because their chakras are very much one and the same.

Sasuke was confident before he ever fought him (this demonstrates that his expectations had changed from when he considered killing Itachi an impossibility) and Orochimaru states after his emergence that he planned to take Sasuke's body then before killing Itachi, so he never expected anything on his own power in the first place.

Madara states otherwise. "You need to know about him...this man who risked everything to protect the shinobi world...the leaf village...and most of all, his little brother. You need to know about Uchiha Itachi's life!" Determining that he must have wanted to take his eyes in reality because he did so in genjutsu is a non-sequitur anyway.

It took him a while (in the illusion). I'm considering what would happen if Itachi just slit his throat, and ripped him apart immediately instead.
I recognize that. I'm saying it could have been extremely dangerous if Itachi just burnt up the body immediately, and there's a hole, like, right there. Furthermore, I expressed my doubts that he was even fooled to begin with, as half the body was gone, and he didn't want to kill Sasuke.
Susano'o was actual extremely well planned and thought out. There probably wasn't as much behind a jutsu as for..anything. I'll post up something I wrote explaining it, if you're interested.

We can all see that he had the upper hand. We can all see that he was winning at that stage. But it doesn't reflect Itachi's true power, going by manga facts, and I'd say the weaker fighter took the lead here. There's nothing much to say about this statement.

Astner, please link to images from now on. As noted at the end of my last post, the newer rules allow on scan per post - you can direct-link to the rest.

If it's not contradicted, retracted, or questioned in canon, it stands. As I've already mentioned, you aren't informed of things in canon so that you will assume the opposite without any canon indicators. Whereas we have an uncontested statement in canon telling us straight that what we saw was definitely not Itachi's true power, and the unchallenged dismissal of the idea that overuse of the the Sharingan was solely responsible, you can only speculate with non-existent backing, that this is false. That kind of approach basically allows a person to assume whatever they want, and it has no value whatsoever. You're arguing purely for the sake of your standpoint right now, rather than balancing the facts presented to us and coming to a conclusion based upon that.

-Not if he was still horribly handicapped before the fight...
- Sasuke was completely and utterly helpless against Susano'o either way, and Itachi truly desired to kill him, he would have. If it weren't for Orochimaru interfering, it could've ended momentarily.
- Breaking Tsukuyomi was unheard of, so the risks of that happening wouldn't have even been something to consider.

"You need to know about him...this man who risked everything to protect the shinobi world...the leaf village...and most of all, his little brother. You need to know about Uchiha Itachi's life!" - evidently, Itachi wanting to protect Sasuke is nothing new.

Now you're just going to one extreme because the other irks you. To attempt to argue this, would honestly, be speeding by irrationality heading in the direction of logical suicide. Kakashi was weaker than a 30% clone of Itachi without the Mangekyo Sharingan. There's no getting around the fact.

There's nothing to suggest that this is happening. You're basically ignoring things for no good reason. As said, that kind of approach basically allows a person to assume whatever they want, and it has no value whatsoever.

He fought with no intention of killing his brother, and was trying his best under those limitations. Additionally, I can take the statement "That definitely wasn't Itachi's true power" as conclusive.

- Because a) according to Madara, Itachi wanted the truth about him to vanish into darkness with his death, and b) he was taking it seriously even if he wasn't gonna kill him.
- Genjutsu=/=reality. Sasuke is still gonna have his eyes afterwards. Suggesting that he'd actually take his eyes because he'd take his eyes in a genjutsu that makes it seem like he's actually taking his eyes is a non-sequitur - an argument that moves from a premise to a conclusion where no connection exists between the two.
- He'd protect him because he's his brother...? :/

- The fact that it would be considered not surprising for Itachi to have been severely injured before the fight even started shows that he was handicapped enough to merit the assumption.
- If he wanted to avoid killing Sasuke, that would force him to hold back.
- Ironically, you only disregard uncontested statements because you don't want them to be true.

That wouldn't make Sasuke stronger than Itachi, though...because either way, he's still facing a significantly weakened Itachi when you get right down to it.

I'm not closed off from it - but there's yet to be anything else canon to consider in the first place. To be honest, your treatment doesn't seem open minded to me - the way it appears is that you cast uncontested statements and the like into doubt when they don't fit with your opinions and then speculate freely in order to satisfy your viewpoints despite having already been given other answers. You appear to be interpreting the evidence by your opinions, rather than the other way around. I'm not trying to harass you, so don't take it the wrong way, but that's what I see happening and that's a bad way to judge anything.

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ANB

Itachi not wanting to kill Sasule has nothing to do with his performance.

His performance showed:

-Sasuke had an edge in Ninjutsu
-An edge in genjutsu (could use his "weapon" better)
-Was about even with Taijutsu and weaponry (with Itachi's brute strength being about the same as CS2)

Sasuke made a mockery of two of Itachi's greatest tecniques: Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. You don't do that with luck or even strategy, it requires talent and strength.

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^Why I'm no longer debating the issue...

Kurushimi

A few questions. In the very end, Sasuke was completely and utterly helpless, right? At that time, Itachi could have decided to kill him instead of implanting the mangekyou tehcniques, right? So even a greatly weakened Itachi could defeat Sasuke, right?

Also:
- Sasuke did not have the edge in Ninjutsu. His Katon jutsu was able to overpower Itachi's, but since Itachi had Amaterasu he was able to overpower Sasuke. Thus, Itachi has the edge in Ninjutsu.

- He doesn't have the edge in Genjutsu. He can't produce anything on the level of Tsukiyomi, meaning Itachi has better genjutsu. Sasuke is simply able to defend himself from them.

- Also, they were about even in Taijutsu as Itachi was "severly injured", showing what "definitely was not his true power".

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~ Credit to Ultimate_Gohan for the signature.

ANB