SS2 Vegeto

It's off topic. If it happens, not here. I probably will build a quote wall and collect everything in one place. Let's focus on Sasuke and Itachi.

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Nikushimi

He does. Frequently.


Sasuke pulled out all the stops against Itachi and was helpless. Orochimaru's menial amount of screentime in the fight only bought Sasuke enough time to backpeddle up against a wall and get tapped on the forehead, looking like a complete and utter bitch. In that tap, Itachi actually planted something as sophisticated as Amaterasu inside Sasuke, which for all intents and purposes could've been used to vaporize Sasuke if Itachi wished to do so. Aside from being injured prior to the encounter, he was also pulling his punches, either to not really hurt or kill Sasuke, or at the very least to not endanger his eyes, depending on your view on that. Not to mention that Sasuke's Jutsu, Kirin- the only thing to force Itachi's hand on his final move, which ultimately led to his exhaustion and subsequent downfall -was almost a direct result of Itachi's own Jutsu, Amaterasu, which would not happen against an opponent of similar overall power to Itachi.

And all of this is still neglecting to mention that the battle started going downhill for Itachi because his Tsukuyomi was broken, which was totally unprecedented up until that point.

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Astner

Why do people avoid the fact that Sasuke's fireball was greater than Itachi's?
Same attack, differnt power.
Fact Itachi got overpowered.

Now regarding Itachi's Magenkyo.
We know that the Amaterasu comes with great abilities, Itachi himself even said that he gained all the abilties (Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susanoo) the same day, no training required.




As for the bigots, that refuse to believe that Sasuke would've won if Itachi didn't use the Magenkyo.

And are refering to this.



This doesn't prove anything. Especially, since Zetsu, a few panels later states that he can't put his finger on it.



Futhermore, it was Itachi who brought Sasuke to the tempel. It would've been a disgrace if he decided to show up weakened or unprepared.

And Sasuke had the chance, but never took it, to gain the Magenkyo in the valley of the end.
Zetsu, as seen above compared the Magenkyo to a tool of war, as a weapon.

Now lets say that I decide to bring a gun to a fight. Just because I can. Does that make me a better fighter?

As mentioned above, the three abilities that put Itachi on top came from the Magenkyo, and one of them had no effect.

So if Sasuke had decided to take it back then, he would have won this battle rather quickly.

And Madara wasn't suprized by the result of the battle either.



Sasuke is more powerful than Itachi, while Itachi possess more powerful jutsus, ebcause of the Magenkyo.

Astner

-WHOA! He didn't prove anything, read it again.

Overall power
Sasuke > Itachi >> Deidera

Jutsu
Itachi > Sasuke >> Deidera

Stop spaming, Deidera got his ass handed to him. Sasuke couldn't even use Genjutsu (his strongest side) and still owned Deidera so badly that he commited suicide.

Sasuke was also steps beyond Deidera, having jutsus such as Kirin in his sleeve.

And no, Sasuke didn't gain any chakra out of Orochimaru. As we could see, Orochimaru's chakra was well preserved in the Orochimaru inside Sasuke's body. And he didn't use any of Orochimaru's jutsu (Except Manda and perhaps the snakes that didn't do anything.)

Mystic_Gohan

?

I always take the circumstances into account. It's not my fault I'm usually defending the victor of the battle.

Nikushimi

When he was in a weakened condition. Compounded by the surprise-failure of his Tsukuyomi, a bleeding gash in his leg, and the fact that he wouldn't want to completely dominate and overtake Sasuke with his Katon for fear of at least damaging his eyes.

Regardless of the exact cause, the fact remains that some external factor led to Itachi's downfall, rather than outright inferiority, which is what you're suggesting. Zetsu clearly states "That definitely was not Itachi's full power". I don't know how it can be any more blatant than that.

Or maybe you're just overlooking the high probability that confronting Sasuke was necessary, regardless of whether or not he was prepared.

Sasuke never took it. So leave it at that. He traded it for training with a pedophile instead, and there's still no guarantee he would've been stronger than Itachi if he had gotten it.

Yes.

Kisame without Samehada is considerably weaker than Kisame with Samehada. But when creating a versus thread, which do we automatically assume exists? Obviously, we default to Kisame possessing Samehada and just accept it as a given. If you want a match based solely on which muscle-man can out-flex the other, maybe you should go post your theories in the DBZ forum. In Naruto, weapons often make the man, and are fair game in any situation. If you can't keep up...too bad.

And if Sasuke found a lamp with a magical genie, he could wish Itachi dead.

Pointless speculation, entirely.

So Itachi gives a demonstration that, according to Zetsu, was far below his usual standards, Madara knowingly remarks that he had predicted the outcome, and we have confirmation that Itachi and Madara were at odd ends with one another to the point that there was probably a mutual desire to eliminate the other...and it doesn't strike you as a high probability that maybe, jut maybe, Madara sabotaged Itachi?

Sasuke pulled out all the stops, with practically three years of preparation under his belt for this day, against an Itachi who was not only severely watered-down, but also not fighting with full killing intent. And without Orochimaru's brief intervention, Sasuke STILL would've lost, and had Itachi decided on using the final Amaterasu against Sasuke rather than putting it in him...well, shit. Itachi could've owned that fight, particularly at full strength.


So bow down and bend over before the mighty cock of Itachi-sama. Him>>>>>Saucegay.

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Nikushimi

Also, if THAT's your response to SS2 Vegeto's post, which pretty thoroughly destroyed your argument nigh in its entirety, there's not much point in discussing this with you.

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Astner

What are you talking about. The ability to preform a ninjutsu isn't dependant on whether or not you have scratched your leg.
Sasuke overpowered Itachi, while using the same jutsu. And Itachi had to turn for a more powerful one in order to not be hit.

But we don't know the reason behind it yet.
But we do know that with the same jutsu, Sasuke is more powerful.

Why?

Itachi was dominant because of the jutsu's Amaterasu and Susanoo. Heck, Sasuke's Kirin which basically required no chakra would've killed Itachi.
If Sasuke obtained the Magenkyo he would've pund Itachi's back-side so hard that it would bleed.

Fair enough. But the topic clearly states, if Itachi didn't use the Magenkyo. Or the alternative, if Sasuke also had it.


The genie in Disney's version can't kill people. How do you manage to misunderstand everything?
- Unless you mean the genie in Aladin in "Thousand and one night", which you've probably never read.

I'll use your sentence "Pure speculation, really." And Sasuke would've been so pissed if he found out ...

Itachi thought he poked the eye out of Sasuke, before he realized he had been butt slammed by Sasuke's genjutsu.

Sasuke lives Itachi don't. Fact.

No, I pretty much agreed with most of the parts there. I replied about the rest.
Seems like someone didn't got his juce today ...

Kurushimi

I assumed his Cursed Seal multiplied his power by 10, including his chakra power. I guess a stronger chakra equals stronger jutsu. That doesn't equate, however, to Sasuke >> Itachi. It doesn't even mean he has a higher higher Ninjutsu rating. Also, Itachi was stated to not have been doing his best, that may have included his fireball jutsu.


We also know that when Itachi fought, he was not fighting near his best. Even if Sasuke truly did best him that regard, Itachi would surely best him in...everything else.


Amaterasu and Susanoo are part of Itachi's power. Also, many things can kill Itachi. Whether or not they will is a different story. Kirin won't work on Itachi because of Susanoo. End of Story.

And if Itachi found the Triforce he'd wtf-pwn the entire Ninja world with a finger. =/

Seriously, though, that's pure speculation considering we've never seen Itachi at his best.


That's like asking somone to fight without his arms or legs...

But, fine. If Itachi was in the same state he was when he fought Sasuke, he would lose. If Itachi was at full health, he'd win.



He could be talking about a different Genie...


Yeah, that's some speculation too. It has some support to it, though. Again, we've never seen Itachi at his best. He was stated to be severely injured, not fighting anywhere near how he could.

Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke

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~ Credit to Ultimate_Gohan for the signature.

JAIF

Funny how anyone can ever claim Sasuke is stronger than Itachi based on their battle, when it was clearly stated a few chapters later that Itachi was trying to protect Sasuke and grant him Amaterasu, not kill him or even get his eyes.

As gay as it is, it's canon fact, and using it, as well as Itachi's and Sasuke's performances throughout their earlier fights, it's quite clear that Itachi is superior to Sasuke in every form and manner.

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Nikushimi

Zetsu stated that it "definitely wasn't Itachi's full power". This most likely extends to his Ninjutsu as well. Tsukuyomi's compounded effects caused Itachi excrutiating pain and deteriorated eyesight, and the injury to his leg was no doubt a distraction as well. On top of that, as I keep saying, Itachi couldn't go all-out, or he'd risk killing Sasuke/damaging his eyes.

Against a weakened Itachi, who was not putting all that he had into it. D:

Am I Kishimoto? No. Then how the hell should I know?

But it probably had something to do with Madara.

Kirin would not have happened without Amaterasu. And even without it, Sasuke was already completely at his limit, while Itachi still had enough chakra for Susano'o and another Amaterasu. It was actually stated that Sasuke went past his normal limits, which is why Orochimaru ended up breaking free.

If Sasuke had obtained Mangekyou Sharingan, there's no guarantee he'd be able to fight Itachi's full power on even terms and win. In fact, I doubt it.

Then you should have worded the topic more carefully, because you're using those notions to try to prove that Sasuke is superior to Itachi.

Wow.

I like how you think Disney has the only genie. Or at least, that the only ppl who have ever had genies are named "Aladdin".

Actually, I used logical inference. Every step of the way, there was something to support what I said. The mutual animosity between Itachi and Madara, Madara somehow predicting the outcome of a fight that he should normally have no knowledge of, etc.

You know, it not only left Sasuke on his knees panting like a bitch to do so, but he also had to do it with a sudden activation of the Juin's Second Stage. Even then, that only proves that Sasuke had enough skill to resist the Genjutsu and break its hold.

Sorry, I guess Kishimoto can only fit one Uchiha cock up his asshole at a time.

The only one getting "juiced" here is Sasuke. Right in the face.

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UltimateGoku

Itachi was handicapped,this was not a fair fight,but I still stand by my opinion that itachi is far stronger then Sasuke, Sasuke is overrated concerning his jutsu, it's like they keep giving him more and more jutsu so he can beat people.

Mystic_Gohan

Itachi was putting all he had into that fight, the hardest we've ever seen him try in one actually. It's ridiculous to say he was "holding back" when he was using everything he's got and I do mean EVERYTHING. Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, Susano, techniques that put a big risk on the user and chomp away a big portion of chakra. He used them basically because he had to, either use it or get killed was the ultimatum. After Tsukuyomi failing, Itachi was in survival mode, and withstood the most damage we've ever seen him take. Kishimoto was kind enough to let us see through Itachi's POV, and by the looks of it, was pretty bad, bad enough to effect his performance and reflexes, until it's stated that Madara had something to do with hindering Itachi's abilities, I'm standing by the fact that it was all Itachi's doing, and that the overusage of the Mangekyou led to his own downfall.

Enough of that crap. To say Kirin wouldn't have happened without Amaterasu is pure speculation from an Itachi-biased mind. If that was the case, than why would Sasuke use up his last bit of chakra on those Katons and instead let Amaterasu's heat do all the work? It's because the Katons were the main factor to activating it, he was merely taking advantage of Amaterasu's heat to speed up the process, thereby using his own technique against him.