Shondai more powerful than Uchiha Madara evidence #2 - Page 4

Astner · 04-20-2008

Shondai was more powerful than Madara. From the mouth of Madara himself.

Astner · 04-25-2008

2x post

ultra_blade · 04-25-2008

Um, I don't know if this has been posted before, because I can't be stuffed reading 4 pages of posts, but Shodaime is stronger because he can control the Bijuu and that means the nine-tails is useless against him. So Madara no matter what, unless he is able to take him on without Kyuubi he was screwed.

Mystic_Gohan · 04-26-2008

I already predicted Shodai being stronger.

But I'm surprised no one here brought up Shodaime's Bringer of Darkness technique... that must have nullified most of Madara's eye techniques.

Astner · 04-26-2008

The funny thing is that Sandaime fought Shodai and Nidaime in their "true form".

**SS2 Vegeto** · 04-28-2008

And how we know he's weaker than Orochimaru and most Akatsuki members at that time.

"Top of the world" just means you're on top, not that there can't be other people on top, which apparently there were. It was also said that Madara stood at the top of the shinobi world. So, apparently they were both at the top of the ninja world. Like, how someone calls some fighters "world class"?

Baylavim · 04-29-2008

I for one am not going to be a fag about this and I'm going to simply wait for the manga to clear it up.

Astner · 04-29-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto

And how we know he's weaker than Orochimaru and most Akatsuki members at that time.

You have to remember that Orochimaru was prepared against Sandaime. Sandaime fought two former Hokages along with Orochimaru.
With the jutsu developed by Yondaime he was able to seal the former Hokages away and weaken Orochimaru.

Quote:

"Top of the world" just means you're on top, not that there can't be other people on top, which apparently there were. It was also said that Madara stood at the top of the shinobi world. So, apparently they were both at the top of the ninja world. Like, how someone calls some fighters "world class"?

It said that "he stod on the top" implying that he was alone. Madara was considered to be the greatest is implyed in the former chapter. But there Senji and Uchiha are allied. In the latter it says that they were in war, and that Hashirama and Madara was destined to meet. Retcon much?
Anyhow. I'd say that he's more powerful than Madara for the obvious reason. He won. Genjutsu is Uchiha's strong side. And to dispell a genjutsu you need a greater one. And if they fought with Kyuubi, and Hashirama won than he would be greater than Madara in the field Uchiha's famous for.

Eragon · 04-30-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astner

It said that "he stod on the top" implying that he was alone. Madara was considered to be the greatest is implyed in the former chapter. But there Senji and Uchiha are allied. In the latter it says that they were in war, and that Hashirama and Madara was destined to meet. Retcon much?

Can't that still be taken as canon though? It makes sense that they would fight and could still becomes allies afterwards, which is how I took it... the leaders would meet and then become allies.

Quote:

Anyhow. I'd say that he's more powerful than Madara for the obvious reason. He won. Genjutsu is Uchiha's strong side. And to dispell a genjutsu you need a greater one. And if they fought with Kyuubi, and Hashirama won than he would be greater than Madara in the field Uchiha's famous for

Just because he's.. stronger(I took the comment as meaning he was the best so, yeah...) at the time Madara's reflecting on doesn't necessrily mean he was stronger when it came to the the Valley of the End, yeah? Comparing different era's and whatnot...

Eh. I think Hirashima was stronger, but not by an impossible-to-overcome margin, since Madara claimed he was the one who stood at the top of the ninja world, and the man he most admired, but thats just really my opinion... hopefully we'll get some more details this week.

Astner · 04-30-2008

Maybe Sandaime was so powerful that the only reason he lost was because he fought Shodaime (more powerful than Madara at his prime), Nidaime (close to Shodai's power) and Orochimaru (who was the weakest of them) at the same time.

**SS2 Vegeto** · 05-01-2008

Orochimaru held his own against Sandaime with Enma on his own, though.

Standing on top doesn't imply that only one person can stand on top. It implies that said person is standing on top, with nothing to say as to who or how many may be standing up there with them. There's no necessary contradiction, so I'm not gonna make one. If they were both "the strongest", they were stronger than everyone else, but then I doubt there was any comparison being made between the two. As for Madara losing, I may have guessed that Shodai was stronger than him if an aging Sandaime didn't think he could handle himself while facing Nidaime at the same time, which makes me think that we may well be missing crucial details, so I'm not gonna jump to conclusions in this case until I see things with my own eyes.

ANB · 05-03-2008

Maybe there is no "power-ladder" >_<

The only real one's that exist are the Jonin being >>> lower-ranked Ninja (stated by the Sound 5 and Sasuke when he fought Kakashi "This is what an elite shinobi is like") and the Kage's being >>> Everyone else. Just because Orochimaru beat a Kage level opponent and Itachi is clearly superior to him doesn't mean youi can generalize every other shinobi. Itachi and Kisame should not be used as yard-sticks. I Naruto, we see mere genins hold their own against enemies who are supposedly "dozens of times" stronger than them (See Sasuke v. Orochimaru and Naruto v. Kabuto). Strategy is the key.

**SS2 Vegeto** · 05-07-2008

If there's enough difference in power, strategy starts to fail - and both of those fights you cited as examples had to do almost entirely with circumstance. Orochimaru wanted to test Sasuke's ability, not obliterate him on the spot, and Kabuto had been worn out from fighting Tsunade and his reactions were slowed after his nerve signals crossed, and he injured Naruto far worse regardless.

Intelligence is not in it's own category apart from strength. That's why it has a statistic in databook measurements. Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Genjutsu, Intelligence, Power, Speed, Stamina, and Hand Seals are all accounted for. Circumstance can't be measured, but individual ability can, and if it can be measured, it can be compared.

04-20-2008	#46 (permalink)
Astner (17) Super Saiyan Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 704 Rep Power: 11	Re: Shondai more powerful than Uchiha Madara evidence #2 Shondai was more powerful than Madara. From the mouth of Madara himself. __________________ "Cute? You think ignorance is cute?! Then you must think mental retardation is down right adorable!" Last edited by Astner; 04-25-2008 at 06:00 AM.

04-25-2008	#47 (permalink)
Astner (17) Super Saiyan Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 704 Rep Power: 11	Re: Shondai more powerful than Uchiha Madara evidence #2 2x post __________________ "Cute? You think ignorance is cute?! Then you must think mental retardation is down right adorable!"

04-25-2008	#48 (permalink)
ultra_blade (11) Student of Lord Kaio Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 171 Rep Power: 1	Re: Shondai more powerful than Uchiha Madara evidence #2 Um, I don't know if this has been posted before, because I can't be stuffed reading 4 pages of posts, but Shodaime is stronger because he can control the Bijuu and that means the nine-tails is useless against him. So Madara no matter what, unless he is able to take him on without Kyuubi he was screwed.

04-26-2008	#49 (permalink)
Mystic_Gohan (20) Super Saiyan 2 Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,474 Rep Power: 3	Re: Shondai more powerful than Uchiha Madara evidence #2 I already predicted Shodai being stronger. But I'm surprised no one here brought up Shodaime's Bringer of Darkness technique... that must have nullified most of Madara's eye techniques.

04-26-2008	#50 (permalink)
Astner (17) Super Saiyan Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 704 Rep Power: 11	Re: Shondai more powerful than Uchiha Madara evidence #2 The funny thing is that Sandaime fought Shodai and Nidaime in their "true form". __________________ "Cute? You think ignorance is cute?! Then you must think mental retardation is down right adorable!"

04-28-2008	#51 (permalink)
SS2 Vegeto Super Moderator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: In God's Hands Posts: 9,291 Rep Power: 25	Re: Shondai more powerful than Uchiha Madara evidence #2 And how we know he's weaker than Orochimaru and most Akatsuki members at that time. "Top of the world" just means you're on top, not that there can't be other people on top, which apparently there were. It was also said that Madara stood at the top of the shinobi world. So, apparently they were both at the top of the ninja world. Like, how someone calls some fighters "world class"? __________________

04-30-2008	#55 (permalink)
Astner (17) Super Saiyan Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 704 Rep Power: 11	Re: Shondai more powerful than Uchiha Madara evidence #2 Maybe Sandaime was so powerful that the only reason he lost was because he fought Shodaime (more powerful than Madara at his prime), Nidaime (close to Shodai's power) and Orochimaru (who was the weakest of them) at the same time. __________________ "Cute? You think ignorance is cute?! Then you must think mental retardation is down right adorable!"

05-01-2008	#56 (permalink)
SS2 Vegeto Super Moderator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: In God's Hands Posts: 9,291 Rep Power: 25	Re: Shondai more powerful than Uchiha Madara evidence #2 Orochimaru held his own against Sandaime with Enma on his own, though. Standing on top doesn't imply that only one person can stand on top. It implies that said person is standing on top, with nothing to say as to who or how many may be standing up there with them. There's no necessary contradiction, so I'm not gonna make one. If they were both "the strongest", they were stronger than everyone else, but then I doubt there was any comparison being made between the two. As for Madara losing, I may have guessed that Shodai was stronger than him if an aging Sandaime didn't think he could handle himself while facing Nidaime at the same time, which makes me think that we may well be missing crucial details, so I'm not gonna jump to conclusions in this case until I see things with my own eyes. __________________

05-07-2008	#58 (permalink)
SS2 Vegeto Super Moderator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: In God's Hands Posts: 9,291 Rep Power: 25	Re: Shondai more powerful than Uchiha Madara evidence #2 If there's enough difference in power, strategy starts to fail - and both of those fights you cited as examples had to do almost entirely with circumstance. Orochimaru wanted to test Sasuke's ability, not obliterate him on the spot, and Kabuto had been worn out from fighting Tsunade and his reactions were slowed after his nerve signals crossed, and he injured Naruto far worse regardless. Intelligence is not in it's own category apart from strength. That's why it has a statistic in databook measurements. Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Genjutsu, Intelligence, Power, Speed, Stamina, and Hand Seals are all accounted for. Circumstance can't be measured, but individual ability can, and if it can be measured, it can be compared. __________________