Island of 1,000 Condiments

Shodai's Mokuton could capture and crush those kunai, no?


Also, from your own words.

But, alas, you're right. We'll just have to wait and see.

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JAIF

Wait, when did this turn into Shodai vs Yondai? Anyway, yeah, but like I said the kunai were a utility. The seals were what mattered. If Shodai had prior knowledge of the technique, he could try to destroy the kunai, but the problem is that they would be very small sized to target efficiently, especially when eight of them fly in eight different directions (eight because ninja in Naruto usually hold them between their fingers in order to launch them, and there are eight "slots" between your fingers). And the paper seal would also have to be thoroughly destroyed. Anyway, Hiraishin no Jutsu would either be used to a) dispatch a large number of opponents, or b) as an evasive maneouver. It sounds excessive to use for evasion, so I'm guessing it simply... wouldn't be used in a one-on-one fight. But like I said, Yondaime had Rasengan, he could summon Gamabunta and probably had all sorts of other skills (he also practiced elemental ninjutsu, according to Kakashi), so yeah. But he's pretty irrelevant in this.

And yes, Naruto is (supposed to be) non-linear. Real-life is non-linear too - I could defeat a much stronger person than me if I employed a specific fighting style. However, there are limitations to how far this logic applies. It probably stands that:

Uchiha Madara (prime) >>> Uchiha Itachi (prior to defeat) >>> Orochimaru (Edo Tensei) > Sandaime Hokage (old) >>> Shodai & Nidai >>> Shodai Hokage.

In a linear fashion. As you see, the presumed difference is quite large (and also, this doesn't really use anything about Yondaime, just the fact that Shodai and Nidai's ressurected bodies were as strong as their original ones, which was implied a few times in the battle by the ANBU watching the fight and Sandaime himself, even Orochimaru). So, I'd find it hard to believe that a person could overwhelm these odds with an elemental disadvantage under normal conditions.

Then again, you never know. It might have been Shodai's MAXIMUM RESOLVE ZENKAI POWAA GETSUGA TENSHOU or a world annihilation jutsu like the one in that video game. Eh.

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Masked_Felix

Didn't Itachi say the the purpose of the Mangekyou was to control the Kyuubi?

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Island of 1,000 Condiments

I don't think so...?

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JAIF

Yes, it was. But it said to control, not to summon. Anyway, Jiraya and his toad sort of confirm the fact that Madara could summon the Kyuubi back then.

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Masked_Felix

Perhaps translation error? Madara was the first to awaken the Mangekyou, after all.

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Uchiha_Madara

I feel like no matter how strong someone is, if you have a willing mind to defeat them you will. Shodaime defeated Madara, but I believe Madara was more powerful. That could be Madara's weakness. If you know you are more powerful than someone you tend to underestimate them. The reason Shodaime defeated him was because he knew what the consequences of Uchiha Madara living would cause the fate of Konohagakure

burningvegeta

Yeah I guess so but think of it this way...

Orochimaru vs Sandaime; Sandaime knew what a catastrophe Orochimaru would cause if he became Konohagakure's new Hokage. Yet he still wasn't able to actually defeat Orochimaru. As he died leaving Orochimaru grievously injured but still alive to claim to be the victor; making your statement about a battle of will almost irreverent to the facts at hand. As your saying without the desire to protect Shodai would have failed when attempting to defeat Madara.

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Astner

Did the fact that Orochimaru used bodies of genins from the sand affect the Shodaime and Nidaime summonings? I mean Orochimaru blamed his inability to fight Yonbi Naruto on his body.

On the contrary, Uchiha Itachi stated Uchiha Madara, at his time, was praised as the strongest shinobi in the world--and this is when he's fighting alongside the Senju leader (Shodaime)



This should at least have some impact on the theory.

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Stupidity at its finest (or is it worst?)

SS2 Vegeto

Similar lives = same potential? Eh, that's a non-sequitur: does not follow.

I might add, also, that it was stated that Shodai's ability to bend biju to his will was what allowed him to become Hokage. How did he become the leader, though? He came out on top in a dispute over leadership with Madara. =/

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Nikushimi

I like how the first part summarizes what I said earlier in this topic.

I like how the second part summarizes what I've said over and over.




Moar people need to summarize my words.

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ANB

EXACTLY.

Shodai would have to be near Madara's power to beat him by your logic.

^When...? Seems to indicate nothing more than what may have helped him beat Madara. If there lives were similar to Naruto and Sasuke it would have been very long, very epic,

Very even...

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Were they created by nothing? Or were they them­selves the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create heaven and earth? Nay, but they are not sure.

(52:35-36)

JAIF

Not if Madara used most of his power to summon the Kyuubi, expecting it to like evaporate Shodai, and then Shodai went all "HAI GAIZ" and made the Kyuubi go away, or worse yet, turned it against Madara... Simply put, Shodai could win if his Bijuu control ability was better in doing what it was supposed to do than the Mangekyou Sharingan. Which is possible. Meh.

Vegeto is right about Shodai becoming Hokage especially because of his Bijuu-controlling skills, which would imply that those abilities helped him against Madara, but this could be interpreted in a massive number of ways so I'm leaving it out.

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ANB

1-Okay, if we're gonna use our intuition then there is a flaw with yours:

A) Madara has s***-load of chakra. Jiraiya mentioned to Naruto that you need to have a large sum of chakra to be someone who specializes in Kuchiyose jutsu's (which is why he encouraged Naruto to tap into his Kyuubi reserves). No only that, but he's stronger than Itachi--and Itachi's chakra is apparently very large considering how long he held out against Sasuke (among other things like the fact Pein's clones could only handle 30% of him and Kisame's chakra donation). So absolute fact=Madara has a lot of chakra and would not huff and puff from summoning even the kyuubi (Going by your scenario. If he had let the battle flow and then summoned it l8r that's another thing).

B) The Kyuubi situation starts to sound idiotic because Madara can also manipulate it. Itachi said that Uchiha Madara "Makes the Kyuubi into his plaything" and the key-toad mentioned that it shouldn't be hard for Madara to summon it (and Jiraiya concurs). Not only that, but Orochimaru warns Kabuto not to summon Manda with his own hand-seals because he would get grumpy and kill him (Pretty much only Oro and l8r Sasuge can handle the Snake-king).

But there is more: Jiraiya was in awe that Naruto could handle Gamabunta "I mean--Gamabunta??? Even I can't handle that,". So apparently you need to be able to "handle" any creature you summon or it's gonna be a bitch.

But what I'm getting at is again this queer situation of Kyuubi-tug o'-war. Both Shodai and Madara bend bijuu to their will (specifically the nine-tails). So...they'd essentially be testing their will power over it and it would probably go nowhere. There is also no proof Kyuubi was near Konoha prior to it's invasion 15 years ago.


2-WHEN did they say it...? When as in what chapter??? What proof is there that Shodai became Hokage thanks to those abilities? If anything, there is implications that it heped him fight Madara. I'm not saying I don't trust you, or SS2 Vegetto, but this is a debate. You can't just throw out "facts" and people tend to say "I think" or "I remember hearing".

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Were they created by nothing? Or were they them­selves the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create heaven and earth? Nay, but they are not sure.

(52:35-36)

Astner