Jehuty

Because he can't die. And Hidan's attacks may be slow, but he has ways of getting blood drawn. Kisame would have to go close-range in order to dismember him.

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Astner

No, Rin'negan > any dojutsu--until stated or proven to be otherwise.

Mangekyo and Eternal Mangekyo are just sub categories, it's techniques that may be unlocked by Sharingan user. It's not a completely different eye.

And if the folk lore and hear-sayings confirmed that the Rin'negan was the most powerful. Then it is a canon statement, until disproven.

Also, it's more likely that a unique dojutsu, that the founder of all ninjutsu had, is more powerful than a sub category which the entire Uchiha clan had potential to unlock.

Nikushimi

Kakashi didn't know of Mangekyou Sharingan until Itachi mentioned it. Jiraiya had no idea it even existed, and didn't know what Tsukuyomi OR Amaterasu were. Incidentally, he made his "Rinnegan>all other Doujutsu" statement during a flashback, way before Itachi would have even achieved Mangekyou Sharingan.

As far as fighting Pein goes, Itachi's Kage Bunshin proficiency nullifies Pein's numbers advantage. Pein would gain the upperhand, true, but then comes Mangekyou Sharingan. Even while Tsukuyomi wouldn't work, Itachi has multiple shots with Amaterasu, and then Susano'o. Susano'o is the deciding factor here, and until I see Pein with a counter for it, he loses.

Because Pein alone would be enough to exhaust Itachi down to a kickable mess. Madara is his equal, at least. Sasori was immune to Genjutsu, Deidara was fast and fuckin' lethal, Kisame is a Bijuu-crusher with a Shodai-level Godblade, and assuming Kakuzu has alternate chakra networks due to his five hearts, he's probably immune to Genjutsu, and thus a huge threat as well. Even when most of those guys died, there was still Madara, Konan, Pein, and Zetsu, and potentially Kisame, depending upon who he would side with. Not to mention, there's more to it than killing Pein's bodies. And when I say Itachi would beat Pein, that's all I'm talking about: The bodies. We have no clue what the "real" Pein is, or what he's capable of.

Denial. Jiraiya made that statement during a flashback, when he had no knowledge of anything beyond normal Sharingan.

That's like Nnoitora claiming that he is the strongest Espada, sans the self-sucking. Not every single statement by a character is true, and in this instance, there is questionable evidence.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Fugaku, Itachi, AND Madara say it was like a whole other Doujutsu? Yes, it's a branch off of Sharingan, but it far surpasses Sharingan.

Unless those rumors originated from a well-informed Uchiha, it's a shaky statement. As I said, even Fugaku, the Uchiha clan's leader, knew little about the Mangekyou Sharingan. It was part of the secret written in the scrolls down at the Nakano Shrine.

Yet, at the same time, Sharingan is just a "sub category" of Byakugan, and far surpasses it. It's also an ongoing theme in Naruto that "the new generation will surpass the old."

A race car sure beats the hell out of a Model T.

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Jehuty

Fighting him with Asuma and Kurenai - "He hasn't unleashed his TRUE power yet..." He closes his eyes, and Kakashi realizes what's going on. "Close your eyes! He can kill you if you make eye contact!" He says that only the sharingan can counter it, but his non-Uchiha blood lets him get royally fucked.

Kagebunshin don't mean shit to Pain. Itachi would first of all have to produce six, and then his chakra would be at a sixth of normal capacity, but even then, Pain has hivemind. Kagebunshin have to burst to deliver information, thus they have blindspots. Pain has none. With a sixth of his chakra left, even one Izanagi jutsu would probably be fatal. The genjutsu sword of Susano'o wouldn't be effective, because again, Pain can just hivemind and cover himself.

Susano'o is a jutsu. Its moves are ethereal. Fat Pain absorbs it.

And let's say Itachi DOES manage to kill all six bodies. By the end of that, he'll have wiped out his chakra and he'd definitely have to have used the Izanagi jutsu, so his eyesight would be fucked. So what? Pain gets six more and comes back for the rematch against blind Itachi. "The real one isn't there."

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Astner

Yes, because Madara was a complete enigma to Jiraiya ... Of course for this we have to overlook Jiraiya speculation of Madara releasing the Kyuubi, as he was the only able to control it.

What you are doing is discrediting Jiraiya's statement of that the Rin'negan was the greatest dojutsu--even though he knew that the sharingan could be used to manipulate Kyuubi--his knowledge of the mangekyo and the eternal mangekyo is unknown.

Until proven otherwise we'll have to accept it. And you don't refute one manga with another, all mangaka don't share the same mind--some like their characters to lie frequently, others prefer them to deliver information. So that the author don't have to write the novel "The truth behind Naruto, what's lies and what's not?"

Fine, you're wrong.

Itachi learned the full truth about the Mangekyo by reading the scrolls in the Shrine. He even knew about the Eternal Mangekyo, as proven when chitchatting with Sasuke. Any lazy bum who actually read the scrolls would learn the same thing.

Funny, how you debate using illogical fallacies. What you call the ongoing theme was nothing but a mere statement. To categorize every single aspect without realizing that it might simply stand for a single or few parts.

Byakugan and Sharingan are good for different things. Sensing chakra points, seeing through objects and alike is in the Byakugan's favor, predicting movement in the Sharingan's favor. As for genjutsu, both Neji and Sasuke were considered the greatest geniuses (genjutsu users) of their generation--meaning that the Byuakugan also contributed to genjutsu.

Nikushimi

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

Statements can be discredited if there is evidence shown to the contrary. Fact is, Jiraiya did NOT know that Sharingan could manipulate the Kyuubi. He directly associated the Kyuubi with Madara, not Sharingan.

Jiraiya's knowledge of Mangekyou Sharingan would be...nonexistant. It's a clan secret that even Fugaku wasn't quite in on, and he was the new-age Madara. Itachi probably had to find out about it (along with the clan's secret meeting place) from Madara himself to obtain it. As far as we know, when Madara left the village, he took the secrets of Mangekyou with him. When he fought Shodai at the VotE, that was supposedly the end of him, and probably the end of Mangekyou Sharingan as well (in particular, Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan). The point is, if it's a clan secret, that even the leader of the clan doesn't know about, chances are, some random hermit isn't going to have the instruction manual.

It's pretty much proven otherwise already. D=

And I get what you're saying, but I was merely trying to make the point that not all character statements can be deemed 100% credible. You have to consider the source, the nature of the information, and the time at which the information was given.

Easy to say that. Both Itachi and Madara gave speeches, referring to it as a superior version of Sharingan. I'm also currently looking for Fugaku's statement, regarding it as a "whole other Doujutsu."

The scrolls- and the location itself -are a secret, dawg. Also, which "chitchat" are you referring to?

Let's take a look right hur:

Yondaime>Jiraiya>Sandaime>Shodaime & Nidaime

Naruto's eventually going to surpass them all, just as he surpassed Kakashi, his teacher. Like it or not, it IS an ongoing theme.

Byakugan is good strictly for Taijutsu. Dunno where you got Genjutsu from.

Sharingan is superior; it enhances Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, and Genjutsu, and it's Mangekyou forms result in entirely new Doujutsu techniques, such as Tsukuyomi.

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Nikushimi

Kakashi didn't say they would be killed, he just said they were finished if they looked into his eyes. Which is the basic rule with ALL Sharingan users. Kakashi simply knew that Itachi was especially dangerous.

Itachi doesn't need six clones to fight Pein. Two would do just fine.

Fat Pein was only shown to absorb physical things. Susano'o's weapons are spiritual. Fat Pein would get shank'd and absorbed like nothing, if he even survived Amaterasu.

I already said that we don't know about the real Pein, but that Itachi would defeat the six bodies.

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Astner

Exactly, statements can be discredited if there is no evidence to the contrary. As well as you discredit Jiraiya's statement you could discredit Madara's confirmation about Itachi intentions as he had no connections to the authority of Konoha.
But fact is, this is how the author tells the story, through his characters. Did Jiraiya know about the Rin'negan? No. He just knew what he has heard from hear-sayings. But that's the truth Kishimoto want to get out there.

You're making the assumption that Jiraiya and his little friend knew nothing of Madara, more than his name and that he could control Kyuubi. Which is very unlikely.

Evidence requested.

Let me get this straight. First you say that Fugaku had no knowledge of the Mangekyo what so ever, and we all know that he didn't acquire it for himself either. And by this you conclude that he knows what the Mangekyo is like?

It's also funny how you go from "A completely new dojutsu" to "A superior version". A superior version or not. It is still the Sharingan.

Sandaime stronger than Shodai and Nidaime, based on the reanimated corpses on the roof?
Itachi said that Susano'o awoke the same day as when he required the Mangekyo. Meaning all abilities you learn with it come instantly. The eternal Mangekyo contribute to one extra ability. These four abilities were overpowered by Shodai. Madara might have gotten stronger, but his dojutsu hasn't.
- Point, you simply proved the Mangekyo to be shit.

Straw man, the distortion of the opposing argument so that it easier can be refuted.

You really like using made up shit that you can't prove, don't you?

And it was stated that Neji was a genius, Rock Lee confirmed this how many times?

Jehuty

Naruto 142 page 13 | One Manga Nope. He activates it, and Kakashi immediately tells them to close their eyes. If it were as you'd said, Kakashi would have told them to close their eyes from the start of the fight.
... If Jiraiya Sage mode couldn't fight taijutsu 3-on-3, then Itachi couldn't take all six with two of his own.
1. Logical fallacy - Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
2. Jiraiya said it absorbs ninjutsu. No matter what, Susano'o is a ninjutsu.
And I'm saying that he would not.

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gojirason

All things considered, we don't really know much about Kisame. The most we saw was 30%, and he was doubtless holding techniques in reserve. He probably shouldn't be on the list just yet. We DO know that he pwned the 4 tails container, though Itachi's involvment is unclear, it looks like Kisame did most of it.

Itachi was sick, like kimimaro, sasuke didn't kill him. His god doujutsu's sapped him greatly, and we have already seen that even with the greatest element of surprise, that amaterasu is completely inneffective against madara's space/time ninjutsu, and suzano-oh would likely be as well.

Rudol_Ichiga

But if he was blind it was all his fault, so it doesnt matter if he was sick or not, he caused it so it weakens his power. Stated.

And if 30% Kisame could summon an ocean at the middle of the desert, and keep up with Gai which is Tier 5 speed, than he is something to be aware of.

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Quote of the now:
"Admiration is the furthest thing from understanding"
Aizen.


Currently watching: YuYu Hakusho
Currently Reading: Bleach,Naruto Shipuuden

gojirason

I know I'm agreeing with you.