Astner

Madara is but a shell of his former self.

Madara [prime] >> Madara [current]

__________________
"Cute? You think ignorance is cute?! Then you must think mental retardation is down right adorable!"

.NamekianSage

This chapter didn't have to prove that 3rd Hokage is stronger than Itachi already. Since it was stated that the 3rd Hokage was stronger than Hashirama/1st Hokage, it makes that he's stronger than Itachi since Hashirama is stronger than Madara, who's stronger than Itachi.

Raven

But get this, how is it that the first beat kyuubi and Madara (and no one should be stronger than that combo...) yet the first and second hokage failed to beat Sarutobi when Orochimaru revived them? I wouldn't say the third is stronger because that would make him stronger than madara and kyuubi and Orochimaru can't even beat Yonbi Naruto, let alone the full nine tailed fox. Something....just makes no sense.

__________________

Official Anime Collection: Cowboy Bebop The Movie + DVD's 1 - 5 (Remix), Fullmetal Alchemist Season 1 Part 1, Patlabor, Samurai X, Wolf's Rain complete collection, Azumanga Daioh, Serial Experiments Lain, Howl's Moving Castle, Kurau, Weiss Kreuz Gluhen, Kino's Journey, Magical Shopping Arcade: Abenobashi, Gundam Wing complete collection + Endless Waltz, Wolf Brigade, Appleseed, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, and Tokyo Godfathers.

Masked_Felix

It doesn't make sense if you look at it in a linear manner like that, no. Sandaime possessed abilities and fighting styles that let him prevail against Shodai and Nidaime at the same time. Orochimaru may have been able to handle them, too, with his damage regenerating techniques. Orochimaru's techniques and fighting style, however, were poorly attuned to taking on Itachi, and by extension, Madara. Shodai's wasn't, obviously. Not to mention that Sandaime had been brought up by Shodai and Nidaime, so he knew a few of their tricks.

__________________

Raven

Yeah, I saw when his fire technique got washed out by a water jutsu used by the Nidaime. It was Enma that saved his life, not his jutsus (well, except for the sealing jutsu).

All I'm saying is that something seems weird. Would you say that Sandaime (young) could take on Madara and Kyuubi as well since he beat both hokages and sealed Orochimaru's arms? I still tend to believe the hokages lacked spirit which for the most part put them below Sandaime because they just stood their and took it, obviously they had no will power at all except for Orochimaru's wishes.

__________________

Official Anime Collection: Cowboy Bebop The Movie + DVD's 1 - 5 (Remix), Fullmetal Alchemist Season 1 Part 1, Patlabor, Samurai X, Wolf's Rain complete collection, Azumanga Daioh, Serial Experiments Lain, Howl's Moving Castle, Kurau, Weiss Kreuz Gluhen, Kino's Journey, Magical Shopping Arcade: Abenobashi, Gundam Wing complete collection + Endless Waltz, Wolf Brigade, Appleseed, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, and Tokyo Godfathers.

Nikushimi

Since when does being "a shell of his former self" mean the same as "he's way weaker than he used to be"?

And why are you using a statement made by Psycho Itachi and treating it as fact?

__________________

Bow to the King.

Masked_Felix

Back at 'cha.

__________________

Astner

Because Itachi was talking about the power of the Eternal Magenkyo.
A mere shell of a previous power means a weaker power.

Because panel statements is valuated higher than your opinion.

__________________
"Cute? You think ignorance is cute?! Then you must think mental retardation is down right adorable!"

SS2 Vegeto

Madara has made indirect admission at an earlier point that his power was not "as it should be", as well.

Itachi may have been deceiving Sasuke, but he had no reason to lie about the power. He could have just as easily said he was weaker, and that he needed the power to surpass current Madara. There's no reason to lie about it.

As for old Sandaime being stronger than Itachi, no. Orochimaru without any summons could hold his own when directly attacked by Sandaime with Enma, and even disarmed him and immobilized Enma. Even then, in a stronger host body, Orochimaru considered Itachi completely above and beyond him, so that there was simply no possibility of success in confronting him. Sandaime at that age, in his weakness, being stronger than Itachi is utterly and entirely impossible. The answer, whatever it is, lies elsewhere. There's really no right or wrong answer to this at the moment, but thinking about it, there are some possibilities. For one, the revived bodies of Nidaime and Shodai reformed completely no matter what damage they took. Damage didn't matter as removing their souls was the only way to beat them, and they focused mainly on the offensive. In addition, Sandaime overestimated his own abilities, having been out of action for a long time. Another possibility is that being mindless killing machines worked against them. It removed their inhibition, but made them almost robotic, and therefore Sandaime was able to beat them in the way that he did. Orochimaru was made various hand signs immediately before Shodai and Nidaime started to battle, so there's the possibility that he at least partially controlled them, and that they were weaker because of this. Last, we shouldn't ignored that Sandaime was getting beaten pretty badly until he sacrificed his life to seal them, and Orochimaru's arms after.

Here's where it gets the most confusing, though. Sandaime was said to be stronger than his predecessors in his prime. Yondaime was said to be the greatest Hokage Konoha had ever seen, someone to which everyone else pales by comparison. Yondaime couldn't beat the Kyuubi by normal means. He sacrificed his life to imprison the demon fox in his son. Madara controlled the Kyuubi, when he battled Shodai. Sandaime in his prime was stronger than Shodai, Yondaime was stronger than Sandaime in his prime, the Kyuubi was stronger than Yondaime, and Madara "tamed the Kyuubi and controlled it like a pet". Shodai beat Madara in his prime.

However, seeing as Madara had actually summoned the Kyuubi during their fight, it would be ridiculous to think that Shodai had the ability to supress it/bend it to his will and ignored it. It'd be like being in a fight and deciding to attack only with your butt. Added to that, is the statement that those abilities are what allowed Shodai to become Hokage. However...even if he not only neutralized Madara's advantage with the Kyuubi but turned it against him, they were both injured before that. The only way I can possibly think to try and patch this up is if Madara was injured before he summoned the Kyuubi...but even so, Madara had the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan and space-time ninjutsu greater than Yondaime's. It's hard to envision how the differences in power work. I mean, it's a start so far, but I really, really hope the manga offers more clarity in the future.

__________________

Raven

This kind of makes me think Yamoto is a match for Sasuke...but I could be totally wrong and from what I've seen the present doesn't equal the past.

__________________

Official Anime Collection: Cowboy Bebop The Movie + DVD's 1 - 5 (Remix), Fullmetal Alchemist Season 1 Part 1, Patlabor, Samurai X, Wolf's Rain complete collection, Azumanga Daioh, Serial Experiments Lain, Howl's Moving Castle, Kurau, Weiss Kreuz Gluhen, Kino's Journey, Magical Shopping Arcade: Abenobashi, Gundam Wing complete collection + Endless Waltz, Wolf Brigade, Appleseed, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, and Tokyo Godfathers.

SS2 Vegeto

Yamoto's mokuton is ten times weaker than the original.

__________________

Astner

Zabuza water clones were 10 times weaker than the original, Sasuke sliced a dozen of them in a matter of seconds. And he was a lot weaker than Zabuza.

__________________
"Cute? You think ignorance is cute?! Then you must think mental retardation is down right adorable!"

SS2 Vegeto

He was able to do so because they were..ten times weaker than the original, and in addition to that clones are destroyed easily. As far as we've seen, base Sasuke is more than a match for Yamato, without Orochimaru's powers, and he could get ten times stronger than that with the Curse Seal.

Although, I can't tell if you're trying to say Yamato stands a chance, or that he stands no chance because Sasuke, who was weaker than Zabuza, could do that to clones that were that much weaker than Zabuza.

__________________

Raven

Yamoto has one of the most...prestigious and powerful, unique bloodlines in all of the series. He and only one person have shared and it is impossible to obtain it unless it's put in your DNA. Maybe even more impressive than Kimimaro's bloodline limit. However, once I saw the Shippuuden fight between the Orochimaru group and the Konoha group there was obviously a big gap in power. One person over powered Sai, Naruto, and Yamoto. Obviously the latter isn't hardly comparable to the former, despite having the same bloodline ability and being apart of the Anbu black-ops.

__________________

Official Anime Collection: Cowboy Bebop The Movie + DVD's 1 - 5 (Remix), Fullmetal Alchemist Season 1 Part 1, Patlabor, Samurai X, Wolf's Rain complete collection, Azumanga Daioh, Serial Experiments Lain, Howl's Moving Castle, Kurau, Weiss Kreuz Gluhen, Kino's Journey, Magical Shopping Arcade: Abenobashi, Gundam Wing complete collection + Endless Waltz, Wolf Brigade, Appleseed, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, and Tokyo Godfathers.