Fred

I see how he couldn't want revenge happened, but I've always thought of MS as something that is cast, and then irrevocable.

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9 out of 10 MFGers thing that Orancello is SSJJason. If you are one of the 1 in 10 that don't, copy this and put it in your sig.

Hiro Nakamura

hmmmzz... i lol....

how can you call sealing a cheapshot if its plain ninjutsu?? :/
even if that might have been the case thats not what happened, you can also say, if kyuubi hadn't been there 4th might have been alive....

its all plot-no-jutsu

also, i cant remeber reading anything about completely sealing away a bijuu, i thot it just said 1st could surpress the power of a bijuu...
what bothers me is, how did shodai die. obviously he's a great nin....
both shodai & nidai look pretty young when they get revived, and ill just assume they get revived at the age they died...

if thats so, how old could madara be... he seems to move about pretty easily, so he's still healthy, and another live long jutsu would be lame :/

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Nikushimi

I think either Kakuzu or Madara killed Shodai, ultimately.

Although, I think we're forgetting about someone here: Madara's brother. He was supposed to be very close in power to Madara. What ever happened to him? Did he just shrivel up and die after losing his eyes?

I think it'd be cool if he went "Riku".

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Hiro Nakamura

hmmmz i dont think it was madara, if it was i THINK thats where his grudge against konoha would have ended...
maybe kakuzu, but shodai was crazily strong, if it WAS kakuzu i would love to see that fight.

well something like: "did my brother sacrifice himself for nothing" was said by madara, itachi also killed his best friend, to obtain these eyes. so maybe it was necisary for madara to kill his bro.

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Astner

If Shodai thought Madara was dead, and he escaped alive. Then he must have been alive. Otherwise Madara would had claim the throne.
Kakuzu killing Shondai is laughable. If so he would have stolen his heart and being able to preform Mokuton.

A Uchiha without the Sharingan is like a bird without wings ... Cat food.

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"Autumn is a second spring when every leaf is a flower."

Nikushimi

I'm saying Madara might've killed Shodai afterwards. Like assassinated him or something, JFK-style.

Kakuzu killing Shodai is not laughable; I still think Shodai got off easy when he fought Madara due to Madara being weak as hell. It's possible Kakuzu could've somehow killed Shodai, and then was prevented from taking his heart by back-up.


Yeah, that's what Kishi WANTS you to think...

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Punxx

Madara wasn't weak as hell. He was the bloody leader and strongest of the Uchiha at that point in time. There's also nothing to indicate that Madara went into the battle with anything less than his full strength. Saying that he wasn't at full strength because he lost is just strange.

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Nikushimi

I didn't say he wasn't at full strength.

I'm saying the standards of strength back then aren't what they are now. "New generation>old generation", and all that business.

Look at it this way: Madara's abilities were originally considered "exceptional". But it wasn't until he and his brother obtained Mangekyou Sharingan that they- together -took over the clan and became its leaders. Then, Madara gained Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, and was, at one point, considered to be the strongest man in the world. However, at the time, "the world" was made up of scattered clans with no organization or village affiliation. Just barbarians loose in the streets and running amuck. So of course someone with a tool like Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan is going to shut them all up. By the current era, however, things have changed. There is a social structure. There is military training. People are organized. What's Madara's style of combat? Charge at the enemy with a fan and scream. This is not the kind of sophisticated approach most experienced ninja would use.

I think the standards then and now are very different, and that what was considered extremely special back then is really only slightly so now.

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Punxx

Yes I would definitely agree with that. But it's all relative as well. One could argue that with more time and practice Shodai would achieve similar levels and be more in line with the current generations of ninja. So what I'm saying is that the very same argument could be made in Shodai's favor.

But yes you're right. The new generations are constantly achieving previous milestones much earlier and then surpassing them. I'm gonna laugh if Konohamaru or Udon surpasses Naruto, Kakashi or Itachi.

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Raven

It's pretty safe to say the Hokage back then were quite powerful. I mean Yamato sealed Yonbi Naruto (who was on par with Orochimaru) and Yamato states Shodai being superior to him even though he passed away.

Also, spirit and willpower can make up most of a fighters abilities. Without spirit and willpower the fight would have no meaning in the end. The "significance" of the fight is what makes one take a tremendous effort in it. Walking zombies of what used to be great aren't impressive because they lack certain aspects, as Island stated before me.

I believe Shodai and Yondaime are greater than Sandaime, I feel that Nidaime is weaker than him though (although he's the only person I've seen that has water wielding prowess like Kisame). These are simply my thoughts I want to express. I will say that if Shodai > Kyuubi + Madara...well that states in itself just how strong he was. We haven't seen the likes of anyone who can take both Kyuubi and Madara currently (imo, well one but it's still a stretch). I do agree with new generations>old though. I mean look at how fast Naruto masters Rasengan and its variants, simply impressive compared to how long it took Yondaime to master it.

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Favorite Quotes:
"Everyone dies, it's a natural part of life. But if your life has no meaning you're already dead." -Wolf's Rain, Kiba

"Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost."
-Fullmetal Alchemist, Alphonse Elric

"It's not what folks say...it's what you answer to." -Madea Movie, Madea

"Deploying resilience is more important than being a prodigy." -Life, Me

Astner

Well, Shodai didn't fought an already sealed bijuu, he fought the real deal. And juding by the picture, he's using Mokuton to hold it back, while both Madara and Shodai are wounded, meaning the battle has gone on for some time.

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"Autumn is a second spring when every leaf is a flower."

Baylavim

I like how Nikushimi keeps making excuses as to why Madara lost, with little or no evidence to support his claims.

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GOAT

Madara couldn't be weak back then, if Tobi Madara is a shell of his former self then he must be weaker than Shodai days Madara. Yet Tobi still made a fool out of the Konoha teams.

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Baylavim

MADARA WAS WEAK BACK THEN.
MADARA DIDN'T USE GENJUTSU.
MADARA DIDN'T THINK TACTICALLY.
HASHIRAMA HAD BACK UP.

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.NamekianSage

This battle proves that Madara is a complete failure. Even with the Kyuubi, he still couldn't defeat Hashirama. And people actuallly think that Madara is final villian material. Ha, I laugh at that.