Masked_Felix

All it would have took was a different arc of the Susano'o sword when cutting down Orochimaru. Even after that, Itachi could have cleaved Sasuke in half any time he pleased, but he only defended. That much is legitimately inarguable.

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SS2 Vegeto

You can't possibly judge the overall power of the two combatants as compared to one another on who can cut loose the strongest fireball. Literally the only thing this proves is perhaps not even that Sasuke is simply a better Katon user, but that Sasuke is better with the Katon jutsu that he does use, on the condition that Itachi's physical state did not weaken the power of his ninjutsu. It doesn't say anything for every single other area of strength, being every other ninjutsu, and ninjutsu overall which takes into account available jutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu, intelligence, physical power, speed, stamina, and sign weaving. No one's avoiding it, they're just not jumping to conclusions over one little thing. In fact, I did mention it in my last post.

I don't see your point. However hard someone worked to get that power has nothing to do with the amount of power they have. Sasuke put his life on the line to gain power to match up to his older brother. Itachi gained the power of the Mangekyo Sharingan in one night. So? That's still Sasuke's power, and that's still Itachi's power regardless of how they got it.

So we're bigots before you've even presented your rebuttal, for not agreeing with you from the get-go? Give me a break. That isn't called for.

It's certainly not written with no purpose. If there was no motivation to write it, it wouldn't be written. You expect us to believe that Kishimoto just inserts things like this without contradiction, retraction, or question, and expects us to figure otherwise? You're not informed of things so that you will assume that it is false. I'd say suggesting that it would not be surprising, by his performance, that Itachi was severely injured before the battle even started suggests that his performance was such that it would not be surprising that Itachi was severely injured before the battle even started. That Zetsu didn't know exactly what was causing it does not invalidate the observation that Itachi appeared handicapped enough to merit such an assumption, nor does it offer grounds to ignore Zetsu's other statement "That definitely wasn't Itachi's true power". I don't see how that could be more direct.

He invited him, and Sasuke, who was tracking him anyway, showed up. It was ultimately for the purpose of testing Sasuke's abilities and transferring the Mangekyo techniques for his protection. As long as he had the power for that, he could fulfill his goal. Also, it's not as if he decided to be severely handicapped. That's just the state he was in, for whatever reason. We have an uncontested statement telling us that what we saw "definitely wasn't Itachi's true power", so we know for fact that he did show up like that. That it comes across as awkward to you is not a valid argument, as there is no necessary contradiction. If you want my personal opinion, Madara had his eyes set on Sasuke, so his opportunities were probably limited. However, that's not really necessary to the argument.

Now hold on. If Sasuke didn't take it, he doesn't have it, so it has nothing to do with his power - and therefore nothing to do with this topic. What he could have done but didn't isn't relevant to what his power actually is.

Next, you're making the mistake of taking analogy literally. He compared them to weapons, yes - specifically, shuriken and rocks, however, Itachi's Mangekyo Sharingan is not a shuriken and Sasuke Sharingan is not a rock. Martial artists will sometimes call all the parts of their body their "tools", to offer and example used in reality. You're speaking of their Sharingan, their own eyes, as if it's a weapon external to them. Zetsu was just using that comparison to demonstrate how someone with a weaker ability could overcome someone with a more powerful technique - you're not supposed to take the analogy literally, because then it wouldn't be an analogy.

Madara knew both that Itachi would not kill Sasuke, and that he wanted the truth about him to disappear into darkness with his death. He knew that Sasuke hated Itachi and was hellbent on killing him. Of course he wasn't surprised.

Possessing more powerful jutsu counts towards being more powerful. Just possessing more powerful jutsu isn't everything, and just possessing more power for jutsu isn't everything. If Itachi can overwhelm Sasuke with the more powerful jutsu that he possesses despite having been overpowered when both using the same jutsu, it means he is more powerful overall in regards to jutsu as he was able to go further with what he had at his disposal. Like I mentioned earlier, ninjutsu is not the only thing that counts towards overall power either.

I've gone through these exact points before. First of all, the opponent being able to diffuse all your bombs when all you use for attacks are bombs is a way worse handicap that someone with lightning speed, high level ninjutsu, weapons expertise, and the ability to transform multiplying ones power ten fold and heightening physical toughness, losing much (not even all) of the usefulness of his also high level genjutsu. Next, whereas Deidara's eye is actually a technique, it's affect up to it's use rather than luck, Sasuke's lightning affinity is not a technique but an attribute of his technique, the advantage (or disadvantage) it offers basically dependant on a game of elemental rock paper scissors. It was just bad luck that their abilities happened to match up that way, for Deidara, and this lead to his loss - not the difference in strength and ability. That you can go as far as to say that Deidara got handled when he almost took Sasuke with him anyway, and still left him bed ridden, is ridiculous.

As for Kirin, a technique that would have replaced a number of other things he was able to do that did work anyway, meaning it worked either way and he still ended up in a bad position, that he no longer had the chakra to use, if he was even thinking of that in the first place and not, say, Manda. Also, so he has a technique that could kill Deidara - the same could be said for Deidara. There's nothing much significant here.

Again, stop treating the absorption as if the chakras are separate. It's not like that, any more so than it is for when Orochimaru controls the body - those he inhabited, each of them, remain in his subconscious mind, and they carry over with him, when he leaves their body. The only difference with Sasuke is that Orochimaru's mind was still active - despite this, the only time he's ever been able to cause a disturbance was when Sasuke was not only out of chakra but tried to forcibly access power he didn't have and woke up Orochimaru himself. As for what else specifically proves that Orochimaru's power was assimilated:
- Sasuke claimed to be in control. You don't control something if all you're doing is keeping a lid on it.
- Orochimaru's regenerative powers kicked in automatically when Sasuke was bedridden. He didn't have to access them of his own volition, they just acted as part of his own nature.
- Snakes replace blown off body parts...and reappear immediately once Curse Seal level 2 is reactivated.
- It is stated to be impossible for either Sasuke or Orochimaru to kill Itachi individually...however, Sasuke is confident in his ability to kill Itachi after absorbing Orochimaru, in other words, there was a difference that bred confidence in what was once considered to not be able to happen.

I mentioned this earlier.

^Right there.

He never intended to kill Sasuke. Sasuke was going to keep trying to kill him as long as he could still move. I should note, the suggestion that overuse of the sharingan had been purely responsible for Itachi's weakness was dismissed in canon.

He could have tried to kill him immediately in Tsukuyomi, he could have continued Amaterasu and burned up the fake body, followed by Sasuke directly below, he could have killed him any time he wanted to with Susano'o...


EDIT: The new rules allow one scan per post, Astner. You'd have to link to the rest.

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Mystic_Gohan

Actually in the beginning, Sasuke wasn't going straight for the kill, and avoided striking Itachi's vital points. I wouldn't take that as conclusive just yet... it was also hinted that Susano's risks were different from the other Mangekyou techniques, perhaps even effected his vital organs, such as the heart. It would explain why he was coughing blood.

The damage caused by a genjutsu is not physical, therefore it cannot kill anyone. At best it can cause someone to go into a coma and hospitalized for weeks, as exhibited when Itachi used Tsukuyomi on both Kakashi and Sasuke.

Sasuke was well-prepared and planned ahead of time what he'd do if he was hit by Amaterasu. He most likely would've escaped regardless.

You can't say for sure if he would've been able to pierce him with the Sword of Totsuka though, if Sasuke were to be on the defensive instead of offense. Especially considering Itachi's state, pretty much zombified. He only managed to pierce Orochimaru with it because he caught him off-guard... probably the smart thing for Itachi to do considering his power was decreasing as time progressed, but still a cheap shot nonetheless.

Astner

Then why did he poke Sasuke's eye out when trapt in the genjutsu?

Itachi simply wanted his eyes, that's why he couldn't Amaterasu or Susanoo him to death. The eyes had to be intact.

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"Cute? You think ignorance is cute?! Then you must think mental retardation is down right adorable!"

Masked_Felix

Because he wanted Sasuke to kill him/take HIS eyes or whatever.

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Astner

No need to double post such a long reply.

Why not? All jutsu's are powered by chakra (the amount and control.)
Using the same jutsu would require just about the same percentage of chakra and skill to make a standstill.
If Kakashi used chidori agaisnt Juinjutsu level 2 Sasuke's (pre time-skip) the outcome would probably have differed from if Kakashi used Raikin, which is exceptionally greater.

Sasuke and Itachi both used the same technique, and Sasuke was overpowering it, forcing Itachi to use a more efficiant jutsu.

I belive he had the upper hand in Raiton as well, at least judging by feats. Futhermore, katon is the only element we've seen Itachi use.

But you also seem to forget that Sasuke overpowered Itachi in the field of Genjutsu as well. He overcame the Tsukuyomi and left Itachi in severe pain.



Overall Sasuke seemed better, it was simply when it came to Amaterasu and Susanoo Itachi got the upper hand.

Wrong, Sasuke had the upper hand in genjutsu. The only reason Itachi is a better user of ninjutsu is because of Amaterasu. He had more efficient techniques, which Sasuke also would have if he killed Naruto that day.

True as this is, it wasn't my point.
My point was, Sasuke could've aquired the same kind of jutsus Itachi had by simply slit the throat of Naruto.
And if Sasuke will aquire the Mangekyō in the future, he'll become more powerful than Itachi.

Yes.

It might simply had been Itachi's eye-sight, or some other side effect of the Mangekyō. If the injuries (coughing blood) were side-effects as well then Sasuke won that battle fair and square.

There is no fact to suport this information.

I could as well say that Toubi is about to implant Itachi's eyes in Sasuke granting him the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan, but it wouldn't be worth anything either.

Itachi was only more powerful because of the jutsus that came along with it.
Itachi's other jutsus (that were used) had no effect. Susanoo saved him from Kirin and so forth. Seeing how Sasuke overcome the Tsukuyomi, I wouldn't be suprized if he'd mind rape Itachi.

Making the assuption that. Sasuke > Itachi (w/o MS) Would lead to Sasuke (w/ MS) > Itachi (w/ MS.)

Of course one shouldn't take it literally to the letter, but the comparison was made and shouldn't be overlooked. And Sasuke was "the expert".

The first part is, again, speculation. Which you should avoid using in an objective debate.
The second has really nothing to do with it, I doubt even Itachi knew that Toubi was Madara. Since Madara trained him a long time ago, and he seemed to detest him.

The thing is, if Sasuke had the same jutsus ... He's the one with better control of his chakra and jutsu, while not necessarely possessing the most powerful jutsus. Sasuke has something Itachi lacks ... Quality. Sasuke is good in what he does, while Itachi simply have more and bigger guns.
Sasuke = Quality; Itachi = Quantity

Sasuke and Deidera both knew who've lost the battle, Deidera simply didn't "give up."



The C4 is easy to overcome, you simply don't breathe for the period of time when the small fragments are in the air. That's how Sasuke overcomed it the first time, he avoided the smoke., and didn't inhail it.



And Sasuke readily knew that electricity defused the bombs. He wouldn't been so careless otherwise. Battle strategy, not luck.





And this confirms Sasuke's victory, and proves that he had other options. But he was multiple steps before Deidera, merely toying with him.





I simply can't see how you think Deidera was close to Sasuke's power.
Deidera knew that Sasuke's field was Genjutsu, the same as Itachi's. And luckely he was prepared for it.
Sasuke didn't know that lighting would cancel out the current, he had to experiment during the battle to figure it out.

And while sneaking up on Deidera, after he think's he've killed Sasuke, Sasuke simply punches him. While he just could've beheaded him.
Instead as mentioned he hit him and asked for Itachi's location.

Are you saying that Deidera is more powerful than Sasuke?

Then how come Orochimaru was fresh, and able to summon a giant hydra while Sasuke had no chakra left? Orochimaru's chakra was preserved in Sasuke's body, that's the only logical answer. If the chakra merged somehow, Orochimaru would've been quite weak when he showed up.
Orochimaru even offered Sasuke the power to defeat Itachi (before breaking out.) And Sasuke said "no."

Because of the lack of Sasuke's chakra.

If I have a bug in a jar, I would say I have the control of it.

Yes, it works like a jutsu, not chakra.

Techniques, regerative powers ... Pretty much the same.

Sasuke did better than expected though, and Orochimaru worse than expected, thouhgt he was pierced by Susanoo's sword.

Itachi tried to take his eye when traped in genjutsu. It was just in the end he decided not to take it (probably because he knew he'd lost.)
The Amaterasu was held back as well, since he didn't want to damage the eyes. And Susanoo for the same reason.

What? Sasuke overcame the Tsukuyomi, as proven above.
Amaterasu hit Sasuke's real body, he regenerated after leaving that scale and jumping down the crack. That's how he ran out of chakra.
Susanoo is a Deus ex machina, and yes it would've killed Sasuke--or rather put him in a dreamlike genjutsu for all eternity.

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"Cute? You think ignorance is cute?! Then you must think mental retardation is down right adorable!"

Astner

Another interesting comment.

Just before Itachi used the Amaterasu Zetsu stated this.

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"Cute? You think ignorance is cute?! Then you must think mental retardation is down right adorable!"

Madness

He was winning... that much was obvious...

Had Itachi not been injured, I'd would've put my money on him.

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Kurushimi

Actually, the fact that Zetsu said that Itachi was probably severly injured before the fight could explain it. Stop dodgin the issue here, especially with complete speculation.


Why do you seem so against the notion of Itachi being stronger than Sasuke? Sasuke was practically collapsed, even worse than he was against Deidara. Not to mention:

1. Itachi wasn't fighting anywhere near his best. (Due to him being "severely injured",) Also, Itachi was almost blind after the Tsukiyomi. Though, I admit it was his fault. Still, there was no way he could've predicted it.

2. Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke. (Due to the fact that Tobi said that Itachi wanted to "protect him").

3. Itachi is simply more winful than Sasuke. (Due to the fact that he's...freakin' Itachi)

Seriously though, there's no speculation one can make that Sasuke > Itachi. It's just ridiculous. It's barely debatable even if we remove Itachi's Mangekyou techniques seeing as we haven't seen Itachi at his best.

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~ xkcd

Astner

Maybe he went from killing to protection when he knew he couldn't win (in his conndition.)

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"Cute? You think ignorance is cute?! Then you must think mental retardation is down right adorable!"

Madness