Astner

We all know that Uchiha Madara was defeated by Shondai, long before the Naruto story takes place.

I was going through the old mangas, noticed a thing and another, puzzled the pieces together and came up with another evidence confirming that Shondai is more powerful, or at least had greater potential than Uchiha Madara.

Here Hatake Kakashi confirmes that Uzumaki Naruto's chakra potential is above uchiha Sasuke's.



So Uzumaki Naruto's chakra potential is greater than Uchiha Sasuke's. Of course the effectiveness differs depending on what jutsus one's capable of. But going by potential, Uzumaki Naruto is likely to surpass Uchiha Sasuke.

Naruto's potential > Sasuke's potential

So what does this have to do with Shondai and Uchiha Madara?

Well, when Hatake Kakashi was chasing Uzumaki Naruto and Uchiha Sasuke in the retrieval arc. He said that they were much like the ninjas that fought there before, in other words Shondai and Uchiha Madara.



You can scroll back a few pages after you've klicked on the source (link at picture.)

Kyuubi also sees the similarity between Uchiha Madara and Uchiha Sasuke.



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With this one can conclude that Uchiha Sasuke's potential is similar, at least relatively close, to Uchiha Madara's. And Naruto's probably similar to Shondai's.

Uzumaki Naruto's potential > Uchiha Sasuke's potential

Shondai's potential > Uchiha Madara's potential

Shondai's power > Uchiha Madara's power

Of course this is very far fetched and vague, and shouldn't be given much credit or be taken to heart. I just thought that I might post it, since I noticed it.

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"Autumn is a second spring when every leaf is a flower."

Island of 1,000 Condiments

I've always held the belief that Shodai > Madara.


But, Uchiha fanatics refuse to understand is that all we know is that Shodai defeated Madara. How is not understood. The conditions are not understood. In fact, virtually nothing is known about the battle. However, it is known that Shodai won. Therefore, until more is revealed, Shodai is more powerful. You may suspect the Bijuu were involved. Evidence hints towards it. But does that make it true? No, it doesn't. Until facts are stated, Shodai > Madara.

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Nikushimi

That belief is a fallacy right down to the punctuation. In assuming that, you are assuming a specific scenerio in a sea of probabilities out of which nothing has been confirmed. To assume ANYTHING, using only the premise that there is no evidence to the contrary, is about as wrong as you can get.




@Astner: It's "Tobi", "Obito", and "Shodai", not "Toubi", "Ubito", and "Shondai". Please get it right before you make topics like these.

Also, chakra potential means nothing, as you said, without the right Jutsu to utilize that chakra. Therefore, people like Itachi, who have infinitely less chakra than, say...Kisame...can still be far and away superior because of the Jutsu they use. Also, saying someone's life is similar to someone else's is a comparison of the events and outcomes of those lives, not anything as specific as a person's abilities. Furthermore, Uchiha Sasuke has been compared to Kakashi and Orochimaru as well, not just Madara, and Naruto has even been (briefly) compared to Anko. This just isn't anything to make a convincing argument off of. All I get out of it is that they parallel eachothers' lives. But that's about it.

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Island of 1,000 Condiments

Assumption isn't fact.

Fact: Shodai defeated Madara.

Assumption: I think Madara is stronger than Shodai.


Which holds the most value when determining who is stronger? The fact.

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JAIF

If Madara was losing in a fight against Shodai... he would summon the Kyuubi. The Kyuubi was so powerful Yondaime had to sacrifice his soul to seal it away. Yondaime was stated to be superior to Shodai. Therefore, it is a logical impossibility that Shodai could defeat Madara under normal circumstances.

To further that notion... Madara was stated to have been the greatest Uchiha, which means stronger than Itachi. Itachi was stated to be beyond Orochimaru's reach no matter the circumstances. Orochimaru with Edo Tensei defeated old Sandaime. Old Sandaime could hold his own against the ressurected bodies of Shodai and Nidai Hokage at the same time, which could also regenerate and didn't tire out. No matter what kind of non-linear approach you assume, this kind of gap is ridiculous. It's like saying that Konohamaru could kill someone like semi-Kyuubi Naruto under the right circumstances.

Also, chakra potential doesn't equal power. Chakra doesn't equal power. Chakra potential doesn't equal chakra. Potential doesn't equal power. Similar lives don't equal similar attributes. This theory is flawed by definition.

EDIT: For the record, I hate Madara. I believe he is a utility villain who has been thrown hastily in the plot to tie loose ends. I hate the fact that he's another Uchiha, and the fact that he's a century-old Uchiha with overpowered abilities makes it even worse. I hate the Uchiha clan because they're so overpowered. The only one of them I like is Itachi, and that is despite his madhax, not because of them. I like Shodai infinitely more than Madara as far as characters are concerned. So, don't even think about throwing that at me.

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Island of 1,000 Condiments

Thoughts in bold.


Edit: I threw nothing at you.

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Nikushimi

You're oversimplifying what I said to reach a purposefully-biased conclusion.

Fact: Shodai defeated Madara.

Assumption: Madara lost under special circumstances and/or because Shodai had some advantage.

Assumption: Shodai defeated Madara because he was simply better.


I'm not saying it's impossible for Shodai to have been stronger than Madara; maybe he was, and that would certainly need a lot of explaining. What I'm saying is, until we know exactly what happened, saying that Shodai won through sheer superiority and calling it fact is the same as saying he didn't and calling it fact.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

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Island of 1,000 Condiments

This was my first post in this topic.

So don't use the biased card on me. D=

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Nikushimi

The method you used to evaluate my rationale was biased, not your "belief".

Also, descretely saying that you've always held the "belief" and then going off into an explanation stating:

does not imply opinion. Whether intentionally or not, it came off as basically saying "Shodai>Madara until we have proof otherwise". You neglected to adequately label that as your personal opinion, and it sounded like you were stating something as an absolute. In my opinion, of course.

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JAIF

You can summon the most powerful thing in existence and control it.

You are faced with an opponent you can't defeat.

The thing you can summon can easily kill that opponent.

You will summon that thing. Logic dictates it. Unless you can't. Because your opponent has more hax than you do (hint hint). Anyway, that's not really the point. A Kyuubi-less Madara would still be presumably stronger than Shodai, according to my calculations. However, if Madara actually tried to use the Kyuubi, then Shodai used his own kekkei genkai to negate Madara's control or even take control of the bijuu himself, then Madara would be the one put at a disadvantage because of the chakra he expended. Anyway, it's just a scenario. There are a thousand reasons why Madara could have lost to a weaker shinobi. And there's quite enough evidence to logically assume that Shodai was that weaker shinobi. It's not set in stone, I admit. Especially considering this is Kishimoto we are talking about.

As for Yondaime, he was stated to be the greatest of the Hokage. He had developed time-space ninjutsu and createst the finest form of spatial (or whatever the Rasengan's form is) manipulation. Shodai could manipulate wood and Bijuu. At this point I would also mention that one of Shodai's biggest strengths, his unique Mokuton kekkei genkai, would be at a great disadvantage against the Uchiha clan's deftly handled Katon ninjutsu (and let's not even get started on Amaterasu). So Shodai would have to be much, much stronger than Madara to defeat him in a "fair" fight. Such difference, I repeat, is irrealistic according to the evidence.

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Island of 1,000 Condiments

I was writing assertively. =/

Which would you take more seriously? (Or be more interested in replying to. Like you are now.)

SentenceA: However, it is known that Shodai won. Therefore, until more is revealed, Shodai is more powerful.

SentenceB: However, it is known that Shodai won. Therefore, until more is revealed, Shodai is more powerful, in my very humble opinion.


However, when it coes right down to it, I can't provide evidence that suggests that Shodai is more powerful. Therefore, I cannot use it in an argument. Likewise, UchihaFanA has no evidence that Madara is more powerful Therefore, he cannot use it in an argument. For example, if we had some epic Versus debate which brought up Shodai / Madara, nobody could use Shodai is stronger because he won the battle. I can think it. Hell, I can believe it. However, when it comes down to arguing facts, opinion means shit, and that's what my idea of Shodai > Madara is when used in an epic debate.

Editing for Dio.

All we know is that Madara summoned the Kyuubi against Konoha when the Yondaime reigned. However, was it ever even implied that he could do so 48 years prior? [Konoha was founded 60 years before the start of Naruto. Kyuubi attacked twelve years before. 60 - 12 = 48.]

Scan? I don't remember him being stated to be the greatest. As for abilities, Yondaime couldn't just warp. He needed PointA and PointB. PointA was himself. PointB was one of those kunai he gave Kakashi. If there was no PointB, Yondaime couldn't warp. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. I haven't read Kakashi Gaiden in ages. Regardless of that, if what I said holds true, Yondaime would need to throw a kunai everytime he wants to warp. Even then, what would the kunai attach to? A tree that's a few meters away? Not only is it a tree, but it's also not that far away.

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Nikushimi

Those two example sentences are also a gross generalization. But whatever. We apparently agree, so there's no point in arguing it further.

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JAIF

Jiraya said that Madara could summon the Kyuubi. The toad laughed at the notion that Madara could still be alive, but in no way disregarded the fact that he could summon the Kyuubi. The toad thought Madara died against Shodai or shortly thereafter. Jiraya was also basing his evaluation of Madara on what he knew of back then, because as we know, after his defeat Madara disappeared from Konohagakure. Both Jiraya and the toad believed that Madara could summon the Kyuubi prior to his defeat. That means they have evidence he could do it back then. Nothing has been contradicted, therefore, it stands to reason that it's true.

I can remember him, but I have no idea when it was stated. For all I recall, it was stated back in the first chapter. It will be a bitch to find, but I will try to locate it. Noone really questioned that notion before, so it sort of just passed on as fact and noone looked for the exact source, so it's hard to find.

As for teleportation, you are only partially correct. Yondaime needed to have the special seal set before he could teleport to it, but nothing said it'd have to be tied to a kunai or placed a certain time before the activation of Hiraishin no Jutsu - the warp technique he used. Also, he could place multiple seals and teleport from one to the other (which was how he performed the technique, by having his subordinates throw multiple kunai with seals at random locations on the battlefield, and then use Hiraishin to relocate himself quickly at warp-speed, instantly disposing of enemies). No distance limits were implied. In fact, Yondaime teleported from the border of the Earth country to the heart of it. That's a pretty long distance no matter how you look at it, for the needs of a fight. If Yondaime just placed a few sealed kunai somewhere near the battlefield, he could keep teleporting between them to avoid the enemy's attacks until he could throw one near him and warp next to him. So no, Yondaime wouldn't have to throw a kunai every time he wanted to warp. He could just have a few and move between them. That is, unless the seal is destroyed when he warps into it or something, but I don't think something like that was shown, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't stated. But I don't see how discussing Yondaime's teleportation jutsu relates to the subject at hand.

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Island of 1,000 Condiments