|Discuss| Naruto Strongest - Page 21

Nikushimi · 10-01-2007

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Originally Posted by DBAF Killer

No, it's like this

Jiraiya > Orochimaru.

Orochimaru>Jiraiya.

They fought, with an equal handicap. In fact, it was probably a little worse for Orochimaru, because not only did he not have access to any Jutsu, but he was in constant agony. Still, he managed to fight Jiraiya more than evenly, while combatting a full-health Tsunade at the same time. Even when you consider Kabuto helped him, it's still very impressive, and it's definitely clear that he's stronger than Jiraiya.

On top of that, did you see that flashback? Jiraiya was really beaten-up by Yonbi Naruto. Even in Orochimaru's weakened condition, he still managed to avoid getting thrashed, and at that point, Yonbi Naruto would've been stronger.

Island of 1,000 Condiments · 10-01-2007

I win.

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto

Again, this gets reposted.

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto

I'm just going to repost this -

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto

*ahem*

Sadly, it looks like I have to use this again.

<BLOCKQUOTE>

SS2 Vegeto:

</BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll even add onto that.

Jiraiya considered that he might have to kill Tsunade, which means it could happen. Tsunade is stronger than Kabuto, but actually had to try. Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya...

Itachi did this to Orochimaru when he was 13

1, 2

Orochimaru fled the organization just because Itachi was so far beyond his reach that there was no way he could ever succeed. Instead, he searched for a different host, and used Sasuke to try and obtain the sharingan.

Itachi is stronger than Kisame. Kisame is stronger than Orochimaru.

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto

Kisame is atleast as strong as Tsunade, with ninjutsu beyond Sannin level, more than three times as much chakra as Semi-Kyuubi Naruto, greater speed than Gai, at less than a third of his power, and the ability to absorb massive quantities of chakra. I should probably elaborate, so I'll just quote some other post I've made...

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto

It took six gates to beat a 30% Kisame clone. If that is the case, an eight gates Gai would likely be less than half his full power. Anyone who opens all eight gates will temporarily gain speed and strength surpassing the level of Hokage, what about when someone like Gai opens them? What does that say about Kisame's full strength? His physical power is monstrous enough at less than a third of it's full capacity to slap around Maito Gai like an infant, he's clearly got Tsunade level strength atleast at max. His ninjutsu is powerful enough to create an almost small lake-sized amount of water in the middle of a desert, once again, at thirty percent, and is more than adequete in handling multiple people of jounin level ability. His speed surpasses Gai. At thirty percent. If Naruto has 100 times as much chakra as Kakashi drawing on the Kyuubi's power, and a thirty percent chakra clone has as much as SBM Naruto, then Kisame could have anywhere from around 33 (assuming those calculations included tailed forms) to 330 (excluding tailed forms as a factor) times as much chakra...chakra affects stamina for jutsu creation, meaning there's almost no limit to the amount of stuff Kisame can continue blasting at you, in addition to already being ludicrously powerful. To top it off, he can absorb your chakra, and he apparantly never used any of his stronger techniques in the fights we saw him in. So, yeah, physical power as great or greater than Tsunade's, ninjutsu at or above the Sannin level (at the very least), speed far greater than Gai's, tens to hundreds of times more chakra than an elite jounin, and the ability to drain your chakra pretty well does translate over to "probably a lot stronger than Orochimaru".

Pre-timeskip Semi-Kyuubi Naruto wasn't actually all that much greater than Semi-Shukaku Gaara himself, if at all, since Gaara both admitted to underestimating him, and Naruto used up all his chakra still...and even Gamabunta couldn't handle Shukaku, both of whom could obviously crush Naruto like an ant, especially based on Naruto's...general interactions with Gamabunta. Even if he got stronger three or four fold over the timeskip, it's still doubtful that he could take out Shukaku in his semi-kyuubi form. Itachi even states that Naruto "isn't that strong" after having already sensed the kyuubi chakra. So, moving up one form (Ichibi, first tailed form) isn't going to suddenly make Naruto go from, like, worthless, to utter, uncontrolable ownage. He'd get a lot stronger, yeah, but it's limits should be...clear to you. If he is far weaker than the Ichibi in Ichibi form, then he's clearly going to remain weaker than biju four or lower in his corresponding (pre-training) tailed forms, at least to some degree. The Nibi Jinchuriki was Kage level too (unlike a few of the others with stronger biju, who's jinchuriki were apparantly weaklings), so there's probably not that much less difference between her and Gaara (who had gotten way stronger over the timeskip, meaning the full shukaku would make it's previous self pale in comparison, as a biju and it's jinchuriki grow and thrive off eachothers power) than there is between his bijuu and hers, and the Yonbi was clearly far, far stronger than either of them. Therefore, Kisame>>>Yonbi>>>Yonbi Naruto>/=Orochimaru.

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto

Yeah. It was stated that reaching the eighth gate, would effectively give you speed and power "greater than hokage". This, would, probably not be referencing the decrepit, aged Sandaime, who has less speed and power than some jounin (albeit, much, much greater technical ability [ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu, hand seals]), and it did point anyone out, specifically. It's more like, saying "anyone who reaches eighth gate will have speed and power greater than hokage"...so, what of Gai? He has tier five power already. If anyone, he's surely stronger than any kage (albeit, not Tsunade, and physically, not overall), at sixth gate. It only takes a 30% Kisame clone to instantly outspeed and outpower Gai, and force him to sixth gate. Sixth. If he might've beaten him at a lower one, he certainly wasn't sure that he could end it, in that short window of time. It takes but less than a third of Kisame's actually strength to do that? He'd already displayed suiton ninjutsu a level of which they couldn't believe, in that same watered down fight, so the rape-fest (to put it bluntly) certainly isn't exclusive to close combat. It's bad enough, without Sameheda being able to devour massive quantities of chakra. The fact that he beat the Yonbi jinchuriki, which should've been stronger than Yonbi Naruto, without a visible scratch, delivers a last kick.

- on whatever occasion I find myself once again dealing with this same tired old issue. As you can see, it's grown.

I might add, that if Jiraiya were actually stronger than Itachi, who could could destroy Orochimaru within seconds, for Orochimaru to actually state that Jiraiya and him had a mutual handicap, in fight that he was winning, would not only make Orochimaru a complete and total idiot, but Kishimoto as well for writing it (with no good reason), and never contradicting it. It comes down to considering Kishimoto totally stupid, or accepting that you just might be..wrong.

DBAF Killer · 10-01-2007

Wrong! Jiraiya has proven to us many times that he's stronger than Orochimaru.

- Jiraiya is consider a threat to both Itachi & Kisame either together or individually which Orochimaru isn't to them.

- Jiraiya was capable of defeating Yonbi Naruto, which Orochimaru couldn't even with his regeneration.

- Jiraiya summoning Gamabunta while he was still drugged unlike Orochimaru who couldn't even summon Manda so had Kabuto summon it for him.

- Jiraiya trained both Minato/4th Hokage & Pein/AL who made Orochimaru their bitch.

Nikushimi · 10-01-2007

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Originally Posted by DBAF Killer

Wrong! Jiraiya has proven to us many times that he's stronger than Orochimaru.

Actually, no.

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Originally Posted by DBAF Killer

- Jiraiya is consider a threat to both Itachi & Kisame either together or individually which Orochimaru isn't to them.

Funny you should say that when the post RIGHT ABOVE YOURS disproves it. Itachi and Kisame only stated that before they met him, then they changed their minds when they were running away. And since they knew ANBU was on their tail and Kisame wanted to stay anyway, that means they could've finished Jiraiya easily and gotten out of there with Naruto if they needed to, but Itachi realized it wasn't worth the effort and decided to flee. And on top of that, it's pretty obvious by now that Itachi never actually wanted to capture Naruto to begin with...

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Originally Posted by DBAF Killer

- Jiraiya was capable of defeating Yonbi Naruto, which Orochimaru couldn't even with his regeneration.

Because Jiraiya has those special seals to suppress the Kyuubi's chakra. Also, Orochimaru was stated to have been losing because his weak host body was being worn out and pushed past its limits.

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Originally Posted by DBAF Killer

- Jiraiya summoning Gamabunta while he was still drugged unlike Orochimaru who couldn't even summon Manda so had Kabuto summon it for him.

Gee, I wonder why that was.

...

I don't know why, but I get the feeling it had something to do with the fact that HE COULDN'T USE HIS ARMS.

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Originally Posted by DBAF Killer

- Jiraiya trained both Minato/4th Hokage & Pein/AL who made Orochimaru their bitch.

Minato trained Kakashi, Obito, and Rin, none of whom are on par with the Sannin. Sandaime Hokage trained the Sannin themselves, who are no match for Minato.

Just because he had stronger disciples, are you saying Jiraiya>Sandaime>Yondaime?

Island of 1,000 Condiments · 10-02-2007

That arm bit made me laugh IRL. =/

Might I also add Kakuzu > Oro > Jiraiya.

**SS2 Vegeto** · 10-02-2007

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Originally Posted by Island of 1,000 Condiments

Kakuzu > Oro

Only without Manda, and not by that much.

Island of 1,000 Condiments · 10-02-2007

Manda is around Shukaku-level.

Individually, Kakuzu would destroy Manda. =/

Nikushimi · 10-02-2007

Honestly, even with Manda, I don't see Orochimaru beating Kakuzu. Kakuzu took a direct hit from Ikiryou and caught it, and I'm positive Ikiryou is stronger than Manda.

**SS2 Vegeto** · 10-02-2007

I doubt Shukaku is as strong as Manda. Gaara controlled his bijuu's power to attack Deidara, but was still weaker than an unprepared Deidara who only used C3 once. With a landscape advantage. The defining characteristic of a Jinchuriki is it's ability to wield unfathomable power by working in sync with the bijuu it harbors. Gaara is strong, next to the average Kage. Ni Yugita had been the second strongest in her village, but the fact that Kakuzu did stop an attack from Ikiryou, and then push it over, should probably indicate that she is not (if so, not a lot) stronger than the average Kage. Still, I don't think there's too much more difference between her and Gaara, than between his bijuu and hers, but Orochimaru is considerably strong, and Manda is similar. In fact, with a good host body, I doubt Kakuzu is that much stronger than Orochimaru without Manda.

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto

Kakuzu, with all five hearts, is quite strong. In fact, he is strong enough to effortlessly beat about Kakashi, basically ignore Choji and Ino, at the same time, with little effort, instantly gaining the advantage in a planned out scenario that put the odds in his opponents favor.

Kakuzu loses his earth element. It means he is no longer invulnerable to physical attacks, and is a lot weaker, physically. It's probably better for speed without it. It doesn't make much difference, considering the other four hearts are still more than enough to beat everyone.

Kakuzu loses his original heart. It is impressive, but he's still not worried. He can take out all of them, as far as he's concerned. It's possible that Kakashi could turn the tables with Mangekyo Sharingan, as a last resort, but Yamato and Naruto arrive before he does.

Naruto charges in rather thoughtlessly, but still gets incredibly close to striking his target. The jutsu fails, because it's difficult to control. It fades away the instant before contact, and the first Rasen Shuriken fails. Kakuzu catches Naruto in his tendrils. Naruto is rescued by Yamato and Kakashi.

Naruto wants to try again. It's more thought out this time. Kage Bunshin are used as a distraction, like last time, and attack more carefully. Kakuzu is fully aware of the damage it could cause if that jutsu hit him, and understood that he had to avoid it at all costs. Kakuzu went into long range mode, just to be careful. Based on Naruto's last attack, Kakuzu decided to focus only on the body holding the jutsu, and avoid the Kage Bunshin, since they were distractions. It was a Kage Bunshin holding the Rasen Shuriken. The real Naruto strikes Kakuzu from behind. Rasen Shuriken completely destroys two of Kakuzu's hearts, and leaves the third on the verge of failure. Neither of them can move. Kakashi finishes off an incapacitated Kakuzu.

Kakuzu, with three hearts, was close in power to Naruto (Post-Training). Naruto (Post-Training) is stated to be as strong, or stronger than Kakashi. Based on databook statistics, judging from the necessary leap between base - semi-kyuubi forms (calculated from the distance between base Naruto and Neji during the Chunnin Exam Finals), if the other tailed increases are anything similar to that increase (which is necessary to bridge other gaps), it is likely impossible for Kakashi to have been as strong or stronger than Post-Timeskip Nibi Naruto, even with the Mangekyo Sharingan, and a fair statistical increase (Naruto's rate of growth is higher). If base Naruto (Post-Training) is as strong, or stronger than Kakashi, then it puts him between Pre-Training Ichibi and Nibi. Kakuzu had three hearts when Naruto left him nearly dead. Kakuzu would have been a little more than half power. Taking into consideration taijutsu and defensive boost from Kakuzu's earth element, I could lower it to a little less than half. If it was exactly half, Kakuzu's full power would place between Pre-Training Sanbi and Yonbi Naruto. It's a little less, so lets go ahead and put him on level with Yonbi Naruto (in fact, that might be a stretch). In honesty, even if you assumed it was only one third of his full powerit would only land him as a little stronger than Yonbi Naruto, enough to note, but nothing more than that.

Orochimaru was weaker than Yonbi Naruto, as he fought him, but not to the point that he couldn't put up any sort of resistent. He was unable to deliver injury in the end, but only sustained minor injuries himself (broken bones, not so major with advanced recovery), and had "fun" while fighting, although he did admit that Yonbi could kill him. It's not really in question who was on top in that fight, but Orochimaru considered Sanbi Naruto's abilities dissappointing, just before, so it's not like the power..doubled over completely, or at least, not most likely. Manda is apparantly difficult for Orochimaru himself to handle, and it would seem the two of them are close in power. If Orochimaru summons something close in power to himself, I'd give him a legitimate change at killing Yonbi Naruto, unless the defenses were simply too strong for anything to break through.

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto

Kakuzu with three hearts was pretty close in ability to Naruto, at the point he fought him, considering he took extra caution and still got hit the second time around, and with five hearts worth of chakra, being someone who fought the Shodai Hokage himself, each heart capable of producing S class jutsu, I'm sure he has quite a lot of chakra - enough for one S class jutsu from each heart, in addition to one combination, without considerable fatigue, no doubt - most S rank ninja aren't tired out so easily by one S class jutsu, unless it's something in the order of Tsukoyomi (Itachi could use that twice, and Amaterasu afterwards, and Kakashi could use the Mangekyo three times). Kakashi's Raikiri could be used four times a day, twin Raikiri being strong enough to counteract Kakuzu's Raiton jutsu - Kakuzu having a lot more chakra than Kakashi. In other words, the chakra Kakuzu actually used wouldn't have been such a huge factor, it might have made him a bit weaker. In fact, like I said, you could knock his current state down to one third of his full power, and it would still be no more than a little stronger than Yonbi Naruto at full.

DBAF Killer · 10-02-2007

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Originally Posted by Nikushimi

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Originally Posted by DBAF Killer

Wrong! Jiraiya has proven to us many times that he's stronger than Orochimaru.

Actually, no.

Actually, yes.

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Originally Posted by Nikushimi

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Originally Posted by DBAF Killer

- Jiraiya is consider a threat to both Itachi & Kisame either together or individually which Orochimaru isn't to them.

Funny you should say that when the post RIGHT ABOVE YOURS disproves it. Itachi and Kisame only stated that before they met him, then they changed their minds when they were running away. And since they knew ANBU was on their tail and Kisame wanted to stay anyway, that means they could've finished Jiraiya easily and gotten out of there with Naruto if they needed to, but Itachi realized it wasn't worth the effort and decided to flee. And on top of that, it's pretty obvious by now that Itachi never actually wanted to capture Naruto to begin with...

Funny how that post wasn't there when I originally made my post. I guess that one of the benefits of being a moderator in these forums. Jiraiya being a threat to both Itachi & Kisame is proven when Itachi & Kisame stating themselves that Jiraiya is trouble for them together, when Jiraiya called Itachi & Kisame cowards for distracting him instead facing him, and when Itachi & Kisame ran away from Jiraiya like b*tches.

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Originally Posted by Nikushimi

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Originally Posted by DBAF Killer

- Jiraiya was capable of defeating Yonbi Naruto, which Orochimaru couldn't even with his regeneration.

Because Jiraiya has those special seals to suppress the Kyuubi's chakra. Also, Orochimaru was stated to have been losing because his weak host body was being worn out and pushed past its limits.

And what, Orochimaru doesn't have his own sealing jutsus to use on Naruto? And so what about his host's body? Orochimaru was at full health & that's all what really matters. The bottomline is Jiraiya was able to defeat Yonbi Naruto & Orochimaru got his a$$ whooped by Yonbi Naruto.

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Originally Posted by Nikushimi

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Originally Posted by DBAF Killer

- Jiraiya summoning Gamabunta while he was still drugged unlike Orochimaru who couldn't even summon Manda so had Kabuto summon it for him.

Gee, I wonder why that was.

...

I don't know why, but I get the feeling it had something to do with the fact that HE COULDN'T USE HIS ARMS.

Still, Orochimaru would've died if his boyfriend, Kabuto was there in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Nikushimi

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Originally Posted by DBAF Killer

- Jiraiya trained both Minato/4th Hokage & Pein/AL who made Orochimaru their bitch.

Minato trained Kakashi, Obito, and Rin, none of whom are on par with the Sannin. Sandaime Hokage trained the Sannin themselves, who are no match for Minato.

Just because he had stronger disciples, are you saying Jiraiya>Sandaime>Yondaime?

This means that Jiraiya was the stronger ninja than Orochimaru for training 2 disciples who greatly surpass the both of them.

Jiraiya's training > Orochimaru's training

Nikushimi · 10-02-2007

First of all, Kakuzu never pushed Ikiryou over. Ikiryou's paw plowed him into the ground and Ikiryou went low to blast Hidan. But the fact that Kakuzu took a direct hit like that from such a massive beast and was shown unscathed at the end of the battle...yeah...it's safe to say he's way above Ikiryou, and thus way above Manda. Also, Yugito said she was the SECOND strongest in Kumogakure. Probably behind the Raikage, who was stated to be weaker than Sandaime Hokage. Though the exact gap isn't known, I think it's safe to say Ikiryou>Manda by a large margin, given Gamabunta's struggle against Shukaku and the full TAIL of a difference between Shukaku and Ikiryou. I mean, Manda was stronger than Gamabunta by a lot, but not by THAT much. If Naruto hadn't woke Gaara up, Shukaku would've beaten Gamabunta. To say Manda could even come close to beating Ikiryou is...ridiculous.

Now, Manda DID threaten to eat Orochimaru, but...take a look at Oro's state when he said that. KAKASHI could've eaten Oro at that point (well, at the end of the fight, anyway). This was likely just Manda pitching a fit and threatening Oro. Sasuke overcame Manda with a basic Genjutsu- albeit a Sasuke with absorbed Oro powers. But Oro's pretty proficient with Genjutsu too, and at the peak of his fighting ability, had two Kage (at least) at his disposal.

So to sum it all up, I doubt Manda is actually stronger than Orochimaru, and I doubt he would make much difference in a fight against someone who took a direct paw-thrust from Ikiryou, without body-hardening, and survived- unscathed, at that.

**SS2 Vegeto** · 10-02-2007

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Originally Posted by Nikushimi

First of all, Kakuzu never pushed Ikiryou over. Ikiryou's paw plowed him into the ground and Ikiryou went low to blast Hidan.

It was on it's shoulder, so unless it drove it's whole arm into the ground, it toppled over too..Kakuzu probably hardened too, on impact, since Shikamaru picked up on him doing that later, but either way, this isn't what's most important.

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Originally Posted by Nikushimi

But the fact that Kakuzu took a direct hit like that from such a massive beast and was shown unscathed at the end of the battle...yeah...it's safe to say he's way above Ikiryou, and thus way above Manda.

First of all, if Kakuzu took a hit from such a "massive beast" as Katsuya, or Choji, with the yellow pill, you probably wouldn't be making this comparison, second, how exactly do you "scathe" Kakuzu? He can repair himself. Hidan was there, so all he needed was to have the Nibi Jinchuriki shed some blood, too. We didn't see the fight, so there's no need to make any unnecessary assumptions, especially when it's contradictory in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Nikushimi

Also, Yugito said she was the SECOND strongest in Kumogakure. Probably behind the Raikage, who was stated to be weaker than Sandaime Hokage.

I said that. It might've included Ikiryou in her power as a jinchuriki, also.

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Originally Posted by Nikushimi

Though the exact gap isn't known, I think it's safe to say Ikiryou>Manda by a large margin, given Gamabunta's struggle against Shukaku and the full TAIL of a difference between Shukaku and Ikiryou. I mean, Manda was stronger than Gamabunta by a lot, but not by THAT much. If Naruto hadn't woke Gaara up, Shukaku would've beaten Gamabunta. To say Manda could even come close to beating Ikiryou is...ridiculous.

- Gamabunta blocked four Renkudan, and withstood one, and got up close to grab hold of Shukaku with Konbi Henge. Katsuya and Gamabunta did worse, or at least as bad, against Manda.
- "The defining characteristic of a Jinchuriki is it's ability to wield unfathomable power by working in sync with the bijuu it harbors."

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Originally Posted by Nikushimi

Now, Manda DID threaten to eat Orochimaru, but...take a look at Oro's state when he said that. KAKASHI could've eaten Oro at that point (well, at the end of the fight, anyway). This was likely just Manda pitching a fit and threatening Oro. Sasuke overcame Manda with a basic Genjutsu- albeit a Sasuke with absorbed Oro powers. But Oro's pretty proficient with Genjutsu too, and at the peak of his fighting ability, had two Kage (at least) at his disposal.

Orochimaru's injuries in that fight were extremely minor. He injured his foot on Jiraiya's Hari Jizou, and was knocked back by Tsunade, as she regenerated from her injuries, and wasn't that hurt. Manda didn't know about Orochimaru's arms, in other words, his constant pain and inability to use ninjutsu.

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Originally Posted by Nikushimi

So to sum it all up, I doubt Manda is actually stronger than Orochimaru, and I doubt he would make much difference in a fight against someone who took a direct paw-thrust from Ikiryou, without body-hardening, and survived- unscathed, at that.

Then I suppose post-training base Naruto was more like pre-training Sanbi...

10-01-2007	#303 (permalink)
DBAF Killer (21) Majin Warrior Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,619 Rep Power: 6	Re: Naruto Strongest Wrong! Jiraiya has proven to us many times that he's stronger than Orochimaru. - Jiraiya is consider a threat to both Itachi & Kisame either together or individually which Orochimaru isn't to them. - Jiraiya was capable of defeating Yonbi Naruto, which Orochimaru couldn't even with his regeneration. - Jiraiya summoning Gamabunta while he was still drugged unlike Orochimaru who couldn't even summon Manda so had Kabuto summon it for him. - Jiraiya trained both Minato/4th Hokage & Pein/AL who made Orochimaru their bitch.

10-02-2007	#305 (permalink)
Island of 1,000 Condiments (28) Lord of Worlds Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Jersey Posts: 8,168 Blog Entries: 3 Rep Power: 103	Re: Naruto Strongest That arm bit made me laugh IRL. =/ Might I also add Kakuzu > Oro > Jiraiya. __________________

10-02-2007	#307 (permalink)
Island of 1,000 Condiments (28) Lord of Worlds Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Jersey Posts: 8,168 Blog Entries: 3 Rep Power: 103	Re: Naruto Strongest Manda is around Shukaku-level. Individually, Kakuzu would destroy Manda. =/ __________________

10-02-2007	#308 (permalink)
Nikushimi Naruto Ranked (30) Akatsuki Leader Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NF's MBD, in some thread raving about Itachi. Posts: 14,030 Rep Power: 234	Re: Naruto Strongest Honestly, even with Manda, I don't see Orochimaru beating Kakuzu. Kakuzu took a direct hit from Ikiryou and caught it, and I'm positive Ikiryou is stronger than Manda. __________________ Pierce the heavens.

10-02-2007	#311 (permalink)
Nikushimi Naruto Ranked (30) Akatsuki Leader Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NF's MBD, in some thread raving about Itachi. Posts: 14,030 Rep Power: 234	Re: Naruto Strongest First of all, Kakuzu never pushed Ikiryou over. Ikiryou's paw plowed him into the ground and Ikiryou went low to blast Hidan. But the fact that Kakuzu took a direct hit like that from such a massive beast and was shown unscathed at the end of the battle...yeah...it's safe to say he's way above Ikiryou, and thus way above Manda. Also, Yugito said she was the SECOND strongest in Kumogakure. Probably behind the Raikage, who was stated to be weaker than Sandaime Hokage. Though the exact gap isn't known, I think it's safe to say Ikiryou>Manda by a large margin, given Gamabunta's struggle against Shukaku and the full TAIL of a difference between Shukaku and Ikiryou. I mean, Manda was stronger than Gamabunta by a lot, but not by THAT much. If Naruto hadn't woke Gaara up, Shukaku would've beaten Gamabunta. To say Manda could even come close to beating Ikiryou is...ridiculous. Now, Manda DID threaten to eat Orochimaru, but...take a look at Oro's state when he said that. KAKASHI could've eaten Oro at that point (well, at the end of the fight, anyway). This was likely just Manda pitching a fit and threatening Oro. Sasuke overcame Manda with a basic Genjutsu- albeit a Sasuke with absorbed Oro powers. But Oro's pretty proficient with Genjutsu too, and at the peak of his fighting ability, had two Kage (at least) at his disposal. So to sum it all up, I doubt Manda is actually stronger than Orochimaru, and I doubt he would make much difference in a fight against someone who took a direct paw-thrust from Ikiryou, without body-hardening, and survived- unscathed, at that. __________________ Pierce the heavens.