Itachi vs. DBZ Characters (Namely Vegito) - Page 35

Madness · 01-04-2008

The Henka is Molecular Alteration simply because of it's effect.

And the statement that once it hits you "it's over" was proved false by Vegito. Quite obviously it should take no further part in this discussion.

Itachi controls chakra like a master - Vegito wouldn't know where to begin. Therefore, Itachi wins.

Stop calling fact opinion.

EDIT: Just so everyone can see...

Bleach Exile > Online Manga Reader > Naruto > Chapter #259 > Page #11

How Genjutsu works.

an0nym0us · 01-04-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

The Henka is Molecular Alteration simply because of it's effect.

My point is henka beam is magic.

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Originally Posted by Madness

And the statement that once it hits you "it's over" was proved false by Vegito. Quite obviously it should take no further part in this discussion.

Just because someone resisted it, that doesn't mean it's false. None of the characters resist it except Vegetto. None have stated that Henka Beam can be resisted, even Vegetto himself was surprised.

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Originally Posted by Madness

Itachi controls chakra like a master - Vegito wouldn't know where to begin. Therefore, Itachi wins.

Stop calling fact opinion.

EDIT: Just so everyone can see...

Bleach Exile > Online Manga Reader > Naruto > Chapter #259 > Page #11

How Genjutsu works.

Are you trying to suggest that chakra flow is superior than henka beam?

are you trying to suggest that motion/flow is superior than manipulation?

Chakra flow controls the chakra in the head

Henka Beam manipulates you

Final Ultima · 01-04-2008

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Originally Posted by Masked Felix

To be more precise, it deals with the nervous system.

"Spirit!"
Naruto 142 page 18 | One Manga

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Originally Posted by Nikushimi

Tickling and punching both deal with the body, but being able to withstand one doesn't necessarily mean you can withstand the other.

Messing with the mind is messing with the mind doesn't matter how you do it.

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Kakashi is an elite ninja, as are Asuma and Kurenai.

They are weaker than Itachi, while Dragonball characters are way more powerful.

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Telekinesis=mind-matter interaction, not mind-mind interaction.

The user of Telekinesis still uses the mind to attack you like Itachi does and it was shrugged off with pure power.

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Jiraiya also said he could kill Itachi and Kisame in the hotel.

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Jiraiya also said Gamaguchi Shibari was inescapable.

Jiraiya also said he would kill Pein.

=/

What was said and what was shown are two different things. Jiraiya never had to deal with Itachi's Genjutsu, aside from disspelling it from that woman, which...happened far away from Itachi, without him manipulating her every action.

It's shown by Naruto that it may in fact be possible to disspell Genjutsu like this, but...it requires a precise technique, and enough power to execute the technique. However...Itachi steps in and stops him from resisting, by using the Genjutsu itself to attack him. And that was the 30% Itachi Shouten, not the actual Itachi, with weaker Jutsu and less chakra to perform them.

Itachi said Jiraiya would have killed both him and Kisame!
Tsukiyomi can be repressed with enough force!

**Majuub** · 01-04-2008

I won't bother explaining since I think Nikushimi did it 1,000x

Itachi>>>>>Jiraiya

Final Ultima · 01-04-2008

Not what the manga states and shows.

**Masked_Felix** · 01-04-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Final Ultima

"Spirit!"
Naruto 142 page 18 | One Manga

What's your point? Are you pointing at what Kisame says? He's talking about the Tsukuyomi. Not how Genjutsu works in general.

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Messing with the mind is messing with the mind doesn't matter how you do it.

Yes. It matters very much. Vegeto resisted the magic completely turning him into inanimate candy with raw power. Genjutsu isn't going to try to take him on with raw power.

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They are weaker than Itachi, while Dragonball characters are way more powerful.

Strength makes no difference.

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The user of Telekinesis still uses the mind to attack you like Itachi does and it was shrugged off with pure power.

Telekinesis is where the mind can lift and move around objects. Also, Genjutsu can't be shrugged off with pure power, otherwise it would have been stated, and Naruto wouldn't have a problem.

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Itachi said Jiraiya would have killed both him and Kisame!

Answered at the bottom.

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Tsukiyomi can be repressed with enough force!

No it can't. Give me a Naruto scan where it happens. Don't strain too hard, though. You won't find one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by an0nym0us

My point is henka beam is magic.

And we never said it wasn't. And effect of it is molecular alteration. You where talking about what the Henka Beam alters. I answered. Jeez, I never thought something so cut and clean simple would be so difficult to get across.

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Just because someone resisted it, that doesn't mean it's false. None of the characters resist it except Vegetto. None have stated that Henka Beam can be resisted, even Vegetto himself was surprised.

Yes it does. If Vegeto can survive the Henka Beam, it's obviously not over. You just have to be strong enough. Vegetto was trying to get absorbed. I should think he was mocking Buu, and not actually surprised.

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Are you trying to suggest that chakra flow is superior than henka beam?

are you trying to suggest that motion/flow is superior than manipulation?

Chakra flow controls the chakra in the head

Henka Beam manipulates you

This was answered and quoted. Go read it. Until you do and provide evidence to the contrary, this group of sentences, no matter how many times you repost them, are rejected.

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Originally Posted by Final Ultima

Not what the manga states and shows.

I'll humor you, and crush your Jiraya>>>Itachi notions with the latest version of the wall.

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Originally Posted by Nikushimi

Itachi isn't the strongest. Tobi is. Itachi is second-strongest, at least currently, and as far as we know.

Now, here it is: The Wall!

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Originally Posted by Nikushimi
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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto
Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto
Again, this gets reposted.

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto
I'm just going to repost this -

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto
*ahem*

Sadly, it looks like I have to use this again.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
SS2 Vegeto:

</BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll even add onto that.

Jiraiya considered that he might have to kill Tsunade, which means it could happen. Tsunade is stronger than Kabuto, but actually had to try. Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya...

Itachi did this to Orochimaru when he was 13

1, 2

Orochimaru fled the organization just because Itachi was so far beyond his reach that there was no way he could ever succeed. Instead, he searched for a different host, and used Sasuke to try and obtain the sharingan.

Itachi is stronger than Kisame. Kisame is stronger than Orochimaru.

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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto

Kisame is atleast as strong as Tsunade, with ninjutsu beyond Sannin level, more than three times as much chakra as Semi-Kyuubi Naruto, greater speed than Gai, at less than a third of his power, and the ability to absorb massive quantities of chakra. I should probably elaborate, so I'll just quote some other post I've made...
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Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto
It took six gates to beat a 30% Kisame clone. If that is the case, an eight gates Gai would likely be less than half his full power. Anyone who opens all eight gates will temporarily gain speed and strength surpassing the level of Hokage, what about when someone like Gai opens them? What does that say about Kisame's full strength? His physical power is monstrous enough at less than a third of it's full capacity to slap around Maito Gai like an infant, he's clearly got Tsunade level strength atleast at max. His ninjutsu is powerful enough to create an almost small lake-sized amount of water in the middle of a desert, once again, at thirty percent, and is more than adequete in handling multiple people of jounin level ability. His speed surpasses Gai. At thirty percent. If Naruto has 100 times as much chakra as Kakashi drawing on the Kyuubi's power, and a thirty percent chakra clone has as much as SBM Naruto, then Kisame could have anywhere from around 33 (assuming those calculations included tailed forms) to 330 (excluding tailed forms as a factor) times as much chakra...chakra affects stamina for jutsu creation, meaning there's almost no limit to the amount of stuff Kisame can continue blasting at you, in addition to already being ludicrously powerful. To top it off, he can absorb your chakra, and he apparantly never used any of his stronger techniques in the fights we saw him in. So, yeah, physical power as great or greater than Tsunade's, ninjutsu at or above the Sannin level (at the very least), speed far greater than Gai's, tens to hundreds of times more chakra than an elite jounin, and the ability to drain your chakra pretty well does translate over to "probably a lot stronger than Orochimaru".

Pre-timeskip Semi-Kyuubi Naruto wasn't actually all that much greater than Semi-Shukaku Gaara himself, if at all, since Gaara both admitted to underestimating him, and Naruto used up all his chakra still...and even Gamabunta couldn't handle Shukaku, both of whom could obviously crush Naruto like an ant, especially based on Naruto's...general interactions with Gamabunta. Even if he got stronger three or four fold over the timeskip, it's still doubtful that he could take out Shukaku in his semi-kyuubi form. Itachi even states that Naruto "isn't that strong" after having already sensed the kyuubi chakra. So, moving up one form (Ichibi, first tailed form) isn't going to suddenly make Naruto go from, like, worthless, to utter, uncontrolable ownage. He'd get a lot stronger, yeah, but it's limits should be...clear to you. If he is far weaker than the Ichibi in Ichibi form, then he's clearly going to remain weaker than biju four or lower in his corresponding (pre-training) tailed forms, at least to some degree. The Nibi Jinchuriki was Kage level too (unlike a few of the others with stronger biju, who's jinchuriki were apparantly weaklings), so there's probably not that much less difference between her and Gaara (who had gotten way stronger over the timeskip, meaning the full shukaku would make it's previous self pale in comparison, as a biju and it's jinchuriki grow and thrive off eachothers power) than there is between his bijuu and hers, and the Yonbi was clearly far, far stronger than either of them. Therefore, Kisame>>>Yonbi>>>Yonbi Naruto>/=Orochimaru.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto
Yeah. It was stated that reaching the eighth gate, would effectively give you speed and power "greater than hokage". This, would, probably not be referencing the decrepit, aged Sandaime, who has less speed and power than some jounin (albeit, much, much greater technical ability [ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu, hand seals]), and it did point anyone out, specifically. It's more like, saying "anyone who reaches eighth gate will have speed and power greater than hokage"...so, what of Gai? He has tier five power already. If anyone, he's surely stronger than any kage (albeit, not Tsunade, and physically, not overall), at sixth gate. It only takes a 30% Kisame clone to instantly outspeed and outpower Gai, and force him to sixth gate. Sixth. If he might've beaten him at a lower one, he certainly wasn't sure that he could end it, in that short window of time. It takes but less than a third of Kisame's actually strength to do that? He'd already displayed suiton ninjutsu a level of which they couldn't believe, in that same watered down fight, so the rape-fest (to put it bluntly) certainly isn't exclusive to close combat. It's bad enough, without Sameheda being able to devour massive quantities of chakra. The fact that he beat the Yonbi jinchuriki, which should've been stronger than Yonbi Naruto, without a visible scratch, delivers a last kick.

- on whatever occasion I find myself once again dealing with this same tired old issue. As you can see, it's grown.

I might add, that if Jiraiya were actually stronger than Itachi, who could could destroy Orochimaru within seconds, for Orochimaru to actually state that Jiraiya and him had a mutual handicap, in fight that he was winning, would not only make Orochimaru a complete and total idiot, but Kishimoto as well for writing it (with no good reason), and never contradicting it. It comes down to considering Kishimoto totally stupid, or accepting that you just might be..wrong.

Time for Nikushimi to take the wheel. I'll even add onto THAT:

Kabuto is reduced to a bloody, crippled heap after a kiai, which also results in Sakura getting knocked out unintentionally. The bridge is totally destroyed.

Ho noez, that was Orochimaru's "Sasuke-kun" hand. 'Going to make it a bit difficult for him to pleasure himself to those photos...

So, apparently, Sanbi Naruto is a disappointment compared to Sasuke, meaning there is a sizeable gap between the two.

So from this, we understand that Sasuke>Sanbi Naruto, and that compared to these two, even guys like Kakashi might as well save themselves the beating and just bend over to take it hard. Anyone weaker than that...might as well not even exist.

Oh, and did you notice that last bit at the bottom-right? "A power that frightens even Jiraiya"... Keep that in mind as you read my bit about Kisame and the Yonbi.

Now let's look at Orochimaru's strength:

He puts up a pretty good fight, and he apparently doesn't want to leave just yet, but his body is forced to its limits from this fight. Therefore, it's safe to say he had a considerable amount more difficulty with Yonbi Naruto than Kisame had with the Yonbi.

And as shown earlier in this "Wall", Naruto's tailed forms are nowhere near the power of the corresponding Bijuu themselves.

We saw Orochimaru and Sasuke fight, and though Orochimaru was in a weakened state, Sasuke defeated him fairly quickly and effortlessly. It is stated later on that Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru and his power. So we now have Sasuke with Orochimaru's power added, who is considerably stronger.

Then comes Sasuke's epic fight with Deidara. Because of an elemental advantage alone, he manages to force Deidara to the last-resort Kyuukyoku Geijutsu, which forces Sasuke to pull his own trump: Manda. Manda is killed in the process, and Sasuke is left without chakra and bedridden for a day, even with regenerative powers gained from Orochimaru.

Now speaking of Kisame:

So he beats the Yonbi, alone, is uninjured as far as we can tell, and is only slightly tired, say, like after taking a long walk. Uh, then consider the difference between the Yonbi itself and Yonbi Naruto. I don't think I need to tell you what kind of a monster Kisame is... And you know what else? Kisame says he wants to "hurry up and find [Itachi's]", after offering to defeat Itachi's Jinchuuriki for him. This, of course, means that he had enough steam left in him after fighting the Yonbi to have confidence in taking on a second Jinchuuriki shortly afterward. Uh...hell.

Quite frankly, it's no surprise. Sanbi/Yonbi Naruto and Orochimaru were powerful in their own right, and could basically ignore elite Jounin. It took four elite Jounin just to get Kisame excited, and this was after Itachi had told him to hold back and not draw attention. Sooo...four elite Jounin, to get Kisame excited while he's holding back? I don't see why it's hard to believe he can beat the Yonbi so easily.

So from all of this, we have:

Itachi>Kisame>Yonbi-?-Deidara>/=Sasuke (post-absorption)>Orochimaru>/=Sasuke (pre-absorption)>/=Jiraiya

I already proved to you the deal about Sasori and why he's stronger than even Kisame, but I'd also like to add this:

Also note Kabuto's exact words: "means he's been reduced to a state where he can't do it himself". So, if he had to be "reduced" to that state, that...obviously means he would be capable of it otherwise.

Final Ultima · 01-04-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masked_Felix

What's your point? Are you pointing at what Kisame says? He's talking about the Tsukuyomi. Not how Genjutsu works in general.

I am also talking about Tsukiyomi...we ALL ARE.

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Yes. It matters very much. Vegeto resisted the magic completely turning him into inanimate candy with raw power. Genjutsu isn't going to try to take him on with raw power.

Babidi didn't try to take Vegeta with raw power and it was resisted.
Chaotzu did not try to mess with Nappa by raw power and it was shrugged off.
Your dealing with TELEPATHS and totally something beyond narutoverse comprehension here.

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Strength makes no difference.

LOL, Baseless assumption here.

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Telekinesis is where the mind can lift and move around objects. Also, Genjutsu can't be shrugged off with pure power, otherwise it would have been stated, and Naruto wouldn't have a problem.

Assumptions on your part.....Itachi never used Tsukiyomi on someone as powerful opr more powerful than him. Jiraiya said it CAN be resisted with enough force.

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No it can't. Give me a Naruto scan where it happens. Don't strain too hard, though. You won't find one.

Jiraiya stated it.......

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I'll humor you, and crush your Jiraya>>>Itachi notions with the latest version of the wall.

Those are INTERPRETATIONS on your part. None of those scans has Itachi saying he could kill Jirayai? There is a scan where Itachi says Jiraiya would have killed them BOTH.

Kurushimi · 01-04-2008

^ Do you seriously believe Jiraiya > Itachi? Did you just ignore the 5 page post right above your head?

Also that pic you showed of Kisame saying Tsukiyomi breaks an opponents "spirit" could easily have been referring to somone's will power.

Final Ultima · 01-04-2008

Did you guys IGNORE Itachi stating that Jiraiya would have killed him??????? from his own mouth.

**Masked_Felix** · 01-04-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Final Ultima

Did you guys IGNORE Itachi stating that Jiraiya would have killed him??????? from his own mouth.

Your posts are hereby rejected until you read and acknowledge the wall. Right now you're just ignoring things and posting. Plus, your interpretations of what is stated aren't exactly renowned for being insightful, since you still argue based on that Toriyama statement that the DBZ anime is canon.

Final Ultima · 01-04-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masked_Felix

Your posts are hereby rejected until you read and acknowledge the wall. Right now you're just ignoring things and posting. Plus, your interpretations of what is stated aren't exactly renowned for being insightful, since you still argue based on that Toriyama statement that the DBZ anime is canon.

You don't even know what canon means so I suggest you take your wall and throw it away. It is nothing more than a wall of interpretations quit acting as if it is gospel written by Kishimoto because it is not. Until you find me a scan where Itachi says he can kill Jiraiya like the one where it says he would have been KILLED by Jiraiya (written by Kishimoto)!!! You have no argument.
This isn't about Itachi vs Jirayai anyway.

Kurushimi · 01-04-2008

Of course Jiraiya would have killed him after they had let themselves get caught in that giant toad jutsu. Itachi was busy mind-raping sasuke and Kisame had been distracted by Naruto at the moment. Why do you think Jiraiya chose that time to act? If he didn't do it then he would stand no chance.

So I'm going to make this as simple as possible. Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya. This was shown in the fight he had with him. He also handled Yonbi Naruto better (as in not almost dying). Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru. Let's review: Orochimaru > Jiraiya, Itachi > Orochimaru. Itachi > Orochimaru > Jiraiya.

01-04-2008	#511 (permalink)
Madness Commander Madness (29) King of Soul Society Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Seeing how long I can make this entry, simply for lol reasons. Maybe I can make it stretch to the o- Posts: 9,136 Blog Entries: 9 Rep Power: 164	Re: Itachi vs. DBZ Characters (Namely Vegito) The Henka is Molecular Alteration simply because of it's effect. And the statement that once it hits you "it's over" was proved false by Vegito. Quite obviously it should take no further part in this discussion. Itachi controls chakra like a master - Vegito wouldn't know where to begin. Therefore, Itachi wins. Stop calling fact opinion. EDIT: Just so everyone can see... Bleach Exile > Online Manga Reader > Naruto > Chapter #259 > Page #11 How Genjutsu works. __________________

01-04-2008	#514 (permalink)
Majuub Moderator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,634 Rep Power: 105	Re: Itachi vs. DBZ Characters (Namely Vegito) I won't bother explaining since I think Nikushimi did it 1,000x Itachi>>>>>Jiraiya __________________

01-04-2008	#515 (permalink)
Final Ultima (18) Artificial Human Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 969 Rep Power: 0	Re: Itachi vs. DBZ Characters (Namely Vegito) Not what the manga states and shows. __________________ AKIRA TORIYAMA:"DRAGONBALL, IT'S THE ANIME AND THE MANGA!"

01-04-2008	#518 (permalink)
Kurushimi Naruto Ranked (22) Yonbi Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Realizing everyone you know someday will die. And that you will meet up with them in heaven. Posts: 2,233 Rep Power: 92	Re: Itachi vs. DBZ Characters (Namely Vegito) ^ Do you seriously believe Jiraiya > Itachi? Did you just ignore the 5 page post right above your head? Also that pic you showed of Kisame saying Tsukiyomi breaks an opponents "spirit" could easily have been referring to somone's will power.

01-04-2008	#519 (permalink)
Final Ultima (18) Artificial Human Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 969 Rep Power: 0	Re: Itachi vs. DBZ Characters (Namely Vegito) Did you guys IGNORE Itachi stating that Jiraiya would have killed him??????? from his own mouth. __________________ AKIRA TORIYAMA:"DRAGONBALL, IT'S THE ANIME AND THE MANGA!"

01-04-2008	#522 (permalink)
Kurushimi Naruto Ranked (22) Yonbi Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Realizing everyone you know someday will die. And that you will meet up with them in heaven. Posts: 2,233 Rep Power: 92	Re: Itachi vs. DBZ Characters (Namely Vegito) Of course Jiraiya would have killed him after they had let themselves get caught in that giant toad jutsu. Itachi was busy mind-raping sasuke and Kisame had been distracted by Naruto at the moment. Why do you think Jiraiya chose that time to act? If he didn't do it then he would stand no chance. So I'm going to make this as simple as possible. Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya. This was shown in the fight he had with him. He also handled Yonbi Naruto better (as in not almost dying). Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru. Let's review: Orochimaru > Jiraiya, Itachi > Orochimaru. Itachi > Orochimaru > Jiraiya. Last edited by Kurushimi; 01-04-2008 at 07:23 PM.

01-04-2008	#523 (permalink)
SS2 Vegeto Super Moderator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: In God's Hands Posts: 9,292 Rep Power: 25	Re: Itachi vs. DBZ Characters (Namely Vegito)