SS2 Vegeto

If it's a "canonical" estimate, still Gohan..because quite frankly, I don't think Goku has the potential to exceed Gohan's current level..but, then, if Goku's limits might've already been considerably lower than Gohan's, Super Saiya-jin 4 would've been a pretty crappy increase off of Super Saiya-jin 3...

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Majuub

If we see it that way, Gohan became even stronger than he could ever be when he had his potential unlock. Since the SSJ3 is the very last form of the saiyans we see in DBZ, it's the strongest. If Gohan displayed his maximum power when he fought Shin Buu, I don't see why Goku would be that far from Gohan. They said Gohan had a greater potential, they never said his potential was 2x-3x the potential of Goku. Considering Goku hadn't a complete mastery of the SSJ3, the SSJ4 would surely go way beyond any potential he has within himself. That's what I meant, a canon SSJ4 would exceed the potential of any characters. So, I don't think the trick: Gohan has a higher potential. Works there. Just my opinion.

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SaiyajinPerfection

You can't pit something that doesn't exist at all (from the standards you've given, whoever you are that posted this thread) against a character who does exist in the original series. The annoying thing about Super Saiyan 3 is that the Saiyan is already working at a level that's beyond their natural limit, that's why neither Goku or Gotenks could master it. Anything beyond the Super Saiyan 2 transformation (remember, Gohan's ultimate form is NOT a transformation therefore it doesn't qualify as part of the equation) already pushes the Saiyan's natural limit, therefore a canon Super Saiyan 4 to me is out of the question.

My personal observations:

SSj= Transformation can be stablized and mastered

SSj2= Transformation can be stablized but can't be mastered

SSj3= Transformation can neither be stablized or mastered

SSj4 (canon)= Who knows? I don't even think it would be possible.

Regardless, if Goku were by some interdimensional miracle, reach a canon Super Saiyan 4, I think he probably would be stronger then Gohan. They can't be pitted against eachother though because we don't know what multipliers and flaws that the transformation would have, considering that it doesn't actually exist.

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warcrack

I made this thread, demonking.

I didn't really make any criteria for this "canon ssj4";Even if you think the state is near-impossible to sustain, it would still increase the user's strength, right? The differeing opinions of what that increase would be was what I was looking for in this thread.

I just thought it would be fun =|

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SaiyajinPerfection

Assumably, yes it would. But what's the point of transforming if it gives you more flaws then enhancement? An example seen before is Super Saiyan 3rd grade, which is physically more powerful then Super Saiyan 2nd grade, but it was completely useless because even with all that gained power, you couldn't gain an upper hand on you're opponent. Goku had seen the flaws of advanced grades this and that's why he knew that if he could master the original Super Saiyan form, it would have a more profound effect on the outcome of the battle. Full Power Super Saiyan is not an advanced transformation of Super Saiyan like grades 2 and 3, it is a physical state of complete perfection and mastery that a Super Saiyan has achieved by training in his Super Saiyan form.
I know, I know......go ahead, say it:
"Demonking, you're taking this way too seriously"
I just wanted to point out that but you can't get a real answer since a canon SSj4 has never existed, therefore we are comparing fictional reality to personal imagination.

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Majuub

I know, I know......go ahead, say it:
"Demonking, you're taking this way too seriously"
I just wanted to point out that but you can't get a real answer since a canon SSj4 has never existed, therefore we are comparing fictional reality to personal imagination.[/quote] Well, it's true that in DBZ a SSJ4 has never existed in the DBZ universe, but we can only base ourselves from the SSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3. So the multiplier for the SSJ4 is not that hard to imagine if you see what I mean. Why do we all say the SSJ4 would have a massive Ki drain? Because the SSJ3 had already one, so we are following the line. If it was so hard to imagine, some would say that it would have pink hair or anything but since we can take exemple to get an idea of his power... You see, some of us place him on Gohan's strenght, no one places above Vegeto because we know it would simply be impossible for Goku to go beyond the strongest character in the DBZ universe. As you said, it's completely form our imagination, but we try to stick to DBZ logic, see what I mean?

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Ultimate_Gohan

I think Ultimate Gohan is a bit stronger than a full power ssj3 but ssj4... i hate to say it but Goku ssj4 would win (non-GT)

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Madness

Yeah, whatever SSJ4 is (non-GT) it's got to be pretty powerful. Not even Gohan (the most powerful unfused character in the series) could match up to the power brought by that form. Though I think the form would only be sustainable for a very short time.

Xyex

I'd have to say Gohan. Gohan beat Super Buu around like he was nothing and despite GT's claims I just can't see SSJ4 Goku being all that much stronger than Super Buu. Perhaps enough to keep the battle between him and Gohan interesting but not enough to pull out a win.

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AH Saga 6:

Read Altered History: Saga I Saga II Saga III Saga IV Saga V

Majuub

First of all, it's a theorical development. Second, SSJ4 Goku from GT is waaaaaaay beyond Gohan in power.

SSJ4 Goku>SSJ Vegeto(Stated)>>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Kid Goku>>>>>>SSJ2 Kid Goku>>>Chou Gohan>>Shin Buu>>>>SSJ3 Adult Goku>/=SSJ kid Goku>/=Chibi Buu(Stated)

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Xyex

GT also stated that Rildo, who Goku could fight in just Super Saiya-jin, was as strong or stronger than Majin Buu(forget which), and this was prior to Rildo's transformations. GT completely fucked over the power scale so I completely ignore its attempts at "ZOMG STONGERZ!" fangasm creations and just go with normal Dragonball logic. Sorry, but 15 years is not enough time even for Goku to improve to the degree needed for Super Saiya-jin to be as strong or stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 was before.

Going by that it works out more like SSJ Vegeto>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Mystic Gohan>>>>SSJ4 Goku>>>Super Buu

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AH Saga 6:

Read Altered History: Saga I Saga II Saga III Saga IV Saga V

Ryat!

I hear all this talk of Ultimate Gohan being equal to full power SSJ3 Goku, one problem I see with this: SSJ3 Goku, within the series, never powered to his max, so we can't be certain whether or not Gohan is more powerful.
With that said, every transformation takes the Saiyans power to an entirely different level, although not for the entireity of the fight (ie. SSJ Goku v Frieza, SSJ2 Gohan v Cell); if SSJ4 were to be achieved, he'd gain a great advantage over Gohan in both speed and strength.

SSJ4 Goku.

SS2 Vegeto

Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku is nowhere remotely close to as powerful as Saikyo no Gohan. Goku is terrified of Evil (Super) Buu, insisting that they'd have to be fused to fight him, and that both him and Vegeta together would be killed if they fought him. Buu himself, who has witnessed Goku's Super Saiya-jin 3 transformation in self defense, while in his Gotenks Prime form, and retains the memories of previous forms, jeers at the idea of the two beating him, simply stating that they can't do it, and are going to die. When Goku transforms, he starts out near his max, at which point, it's just a matter of exerting himself or drawing out all of his power or not, but the problem is, his ki drains while living, rapidly. Gohan made sport of this Buu. In fact, Goku implies that Gotenks will be stronger than himself, and he never expected them to reach Super Saiya-jin 3, nor would he have planned on their last ditch training in the RoSaT. There is quite the significant gap here. Saikyo no Gohan>>>Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks>>>Evil (Super) Buu>>>Super Saiya-jin Gotenks (Post RoSaT)>>>Super Saiya-jin Gotenks (Pre RoSaT)>/=Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.

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warcrack

What leads you to believe that ssj3 Gotenks>>>Super Boo when he was only shown to have a fair advantage against him?

Now that I think about it, Ultimate Gohan would definately be the victor in this fight. Logically:

Ultimate Gohan>>>ssj3 Gotenks>>>ssj2 Gotenks>>>ssj Gotenks (post-ROSAT)>ssj Gotenks (pre ROSAT)>=ssj3 Goku

Can't really cover a gap like that with the compounded ssj multipliers and all.

Majuub

Actually, he could.

Gohan has is about 4x-5x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Since Goku has little mastery of the SSJ3, we can assume that, a MSSJ3 would be an advantage for him. To power up, to which point, the Ki drain wouldn't be a probleme no more. The difference between SSJ3 and MSSJ3 would be the same difference between SSJ and MSSJ. Now, take MSSJ3 Goku, grant him a new SSJ form that multiplies his power by at least 5x. Gohan will get destroyed, he has no chance to win.

It would give something like that.

SSJ4 Goku>>Chou Gohan>>SSJ3 Gotenks>>SSJ2 Gotenks>MSSJ3 Goku>>MSSJ Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku>SSJ Gotenks

MSSJ Gotenks is Gotenks Post ROSAT by the way, at this point, he is definitely a masterd super saiyan. A new SSJ transformation would make Goku leaps and bounds more powerful.

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