warcrack

Here's an old post I made addressing this subject:

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Arros

It's pretty much fact that Super Buu>>>Goku, and I think it's been proven enough in the posts, and if not, by Warcrack above. Goku said that if he and Vegeta fought buu, they'd be massacred. Super Buu>>>>>Chibi Buu. Goku said that he could defeat Chibi Buu easily at full power.

Why this topic is still going on, when its quite obvious who would win is beyond me.

Majuub

We do know Shin Buu would win, it's just to discuss how would Goku fair against him. Goku was outmached by opponents many times but he was still able to injure is ennemy quite a bit, that's why we're discussing, what would Goku do to at least injure Shin Buu to a certain degree that he would be at a disadvantage.

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Zer0

Quoted for truth.

Gokuu is just outmatched by several fold. The Genkai Dama wouldn't even work since Shin Buu would know about it and eliminate Gokuu before he even raises his hands.

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Majuub

You guys seriously underestimate Goku. Considering he was about equal to SSJ Gotenks Post ROSAT who didn't get killed right at the moment he raised his hands, Goku might be able to pull out something. It's not like Shin Buu was taking SSJ Gotenks seriously, but he was still dumb enough to get hit by the Super Ghost Kamikaze attack, and that attack hurt him enough because he didn't want to get touch by it anymore. We all saw that when an attack was completely innofensive to Buu, he didn't even bother dodging it, he was just taking it and then regenrate right after. If we take a dead SSJ3 Goku, then he might be smart enough to blast Shin Buu with an attack as strong as the Super Ghost Kamikaze since he has no Ki limit and the strain isn't as strong as when he's alive. He also has instant transmission, Genki Dama, seriously, he wouldn't get killed in a moment by an idiot like Shin Buu. Sure he would lost, but not as easily as you guys think. Plus, he's much smarter, skilled and he thinks way faster than SSJ Gotenks, so most likely, he can find a way to do something.

Just take that in account, if SSJ Gotenks was able to hurt Shin Buu(Even if the attack wasn't near life threatning) then the power up from SSJ to SSJ3 might be as not as big as we think.

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Deep thought

Actually, Goku's techniques are not going to help him too much. If you don't believe me, then let's review the Goku's ever so large repertoire of attacks.

Attack #1 - The Kamehameha Wave: This attack actually has a fair chance of damaging Shin Buu considerably, the Raditz Arc proves that, as Goku was able to multiply his power slightly over 2-fold his current power level. However, the best case scenario is that Shin Buu would end up with similar effects as with Gotenks's Kamikaze Ghost Attack. However, after that, he'd be more on his guard, like with the KGA, and even though Gotenks could hit Buu with another swarm of ghosts, that was only because the KGA has much more flexible uses than the Kamehameha. Even so, Goku would be throughly exhausted after firing one Kamehameha, so I doubt that his second one would be anywhere near the power of his first one. In addition to that, even it did have as much power as the previous one, and even if it did hit, then Super Buu would simply be annoyed at this point, and his anger would lead to true rage, his rage would lead to him to use his full power, and we all know what that means.

Attack #2 - The Genkai Dama: There is just too many things wrong with the Gankai Dama, the first one being Shin Buu's impatience. I highly doubt that Shin Buu would wait that long, since Freeza was impatient while wait for Goku to prepare a Genkai Dama 1/200th the size of the one required to obliterate Shin Buu completely, at least. Shin Buu is also more impatient than Freeza, as I bet that he could actually wait for Gotenks to emerge if Freeza was in Buu's shoes. The second flaw is the fact that something like that would pretty much destroy any planet that they're on, as the Genkai Dama required to kill Shin Buu completely and utterly would have to be three times as big as the one used to kill Chibi Buu.

Attack #3 - Self-Destruct?: This one is simple. Majin Vegeta's Final Explosion didn't completly kill Majin Buu. Now, let's apply some multipliers to Goku and Shin Buu, and I really think that this is generous.

Shin Buu: Roughly 4X stronger than the happy Majin Boo that we see before Vegeta blows himself up (this mutiplier should be higher, considering that Majin Buu was happy and therefore he didn't have that high of a powerlevel, as the angrier Majin Buu gets, the more powerful he gets).

Super Sayajin 3 Goku: Roughly 4X stronger than Majin Vegeta (I personally don't see the Super Sayajin 3 multiplier being that high, but it doesn't hurt my arguement to place it this high, anway).

So Goku using self-destruct would yield similar effects to Majin Vegeta's self-destruct. Even if that completely vaporizes Shin Buu, then it's a draw. So either way, even if you stretch it, Goku isn't going to win.

warcrack

The nail in the coffin for me is that Goku said himself that he would die if he fought Super Boo.

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Devilz

Mind you, those enemies don't have ridiculous regenerative abilities like Buu does. The only way to kill him is a blast that will wipe him out completely. The Kamehameha won't work for sure. He won't have time for the Spirit Bomb either.

fktizle

When did he say that? Just wanted to ask. Maybe he said that in the manga or in the anime. In terms of the anime Goku would win because when he came to Earth after being brought back to life he obviously couldn't keep his own against Buutenks that's why he rushed Gohan to fuse. But when Gotenks fusion was lost inside of Buu, Goku told Gohan to forget the fusion. This means to me, at least, that SSJ3 Goku was strong enough to talk down on Super Buu with Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks, then I think he could have at least beat him. Remember, even Buu was scared but realized he still had his "insurance policy". Inside of Super Buu, SSJ2 Goku held his own against Buu. I have made a list of powerlevels according to the ANIME.

Janenba(Fighting Form)>Mystic Gohan>SSJ3 Goku(Dead, Otherworld)>Kid Buu>SSJ3 Goku(Alive, Otherworld)>SSJ3 Goku(Alive, Earth)>/=Super Buu Piccolo>Super Buu>SSJ3 Goku(Dead, Earth)>Majin Buu>Evil Buu>Mr. Buu

Arros

[quote=fktizle;839355]When did he say that? Just wanted to ask. Maybe he said that in the manga or in the anime. In terms of the anime Goku would win because when he came to Earth after being brought back to life he obviously couldn't keep his own against Buutenks that's why he rushed Gohan to fuse. But when Gotenks fusion was lost inside of Buu, Goku told Gohan to forget the fusion. This means to me, at least, that SSJ3 Goku was strong enough to talk down on Super Buu with Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks, then I think he could have at least beat him. Remember, even Buu was scared but realized he still had his "insurance policy". Inside of Super Buu, SSJ2 Goku held his own against Buu. I have made a list of powerlevels according to the ANIME.


In the Manga, Goku said that now Even Gohan could beat him when Buu reverted to his Piccolo state, I don't remember Goku saying anything about he being able to fight Buu.

and trust me...you don't want to use the anime, especially funimation which states that Kid buu is the strongest *which I think your using, if not, correct me* to figure out powerlevels.

warcrack

He said in the manga that he would die if he fought Super Boo. Read my big post at the top of this page.

My "non-canon" power listing would be like this:

Super Boo (Gotenks Prime)>>>Kid Boo=ssj3 Goku>Ultimate Gohan>>>ssj3 Gotenks>=Super Boo>>>Majin Boo>>>Evil Boo>>>Mr.Boo

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Majuub

We all think Shin Buu is 4x stronger than Goku because we assume we are accurate in terms of knowing the multiplier. We saw that, from SSJ to SSJ3, the multiplier for Gotenks wasn't the same as for Goku, that Gotenks seemed much lower. If the multiplier from SSJ2 to SSJ3 is just 2x for Goku and from SSJ to SSJ3 it is just 2-3x for Gotenks, than obviously, Shin Buu and Goku are much closer than we think. We all assume we know the multiplier but we don't know it a t all.

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warcrack

Even without multipliers (which I agree with your skepticism on them), take a look at the gap between Super Boo and ssj3 Goku:

Super Boo>>>mssj Gotenks (post ROSAT)>>Fat Boo>=mssj Gotenks (pre ROSAT)>=ssj3 Goku

Super Boo>>> >> > >ssj3 Goku

No matter how smart Goku can be, he can't cover a gap that big.

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Majuub

I disagree, Goku said he could have taken out Fat Buu, just before his fight with Chibi Buu he told Vegeta he could have taken out Fat Buu. He said Gotenks pre ROSAT was stronger than him because he wanted to make Buu excited, it was obvious he was exagerating since when he said he was stronger than Fat Buu, he looked confident and it seemed Fat Buu wouldn't have given him much trouble. Maybe, just maybe, at worst SSJ3 Goku is weaker than SSJ Gotenks Post ROSAT, at best he's as strong as SSJ2 Gotenks. Suprising when we look that way huh? It seems nobody ever thought Goku was giving Gotenks way too much credit. If he was so confident, than obviously he was a good deal stronger than Fat Buu, maybe Gotenks pre ROSAT was dead even, maybe a little stronger, maybe SSJ Gotenks Post ROSAT is still weaker than SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Gotenks and SSJ3 Goku are dead even or SSJ2 Gotenks is a little stronger. If we do a match-up between two characters who have completely different level of power, it's good to give the weaker one the biggest advantage we can since the match would be much more interesting.

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warcrack

I don't think Goku was exaggerating Gotenks' power: at the time, Gotenks was their only hope for defeating Fat Boo, since everyone was too weak and the only person in Boo's power range (Goku) was dead. Why would he try to exaggerate in front of the enemy with those kinds of odds? It's just not appropiate for Goku to be doing something like that given the situation.

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