SS2 Vegeto

It's a forum rule, and one that isn't debateable, just as much so as
any other rule on these boards. The thing is, if you attempt to apply
GT logic to anything, including GT, the order of power will be
so screwed up that it literally creates an endless series of logical
paradoxes, places many individuals in positions on this long list of
comparisons, that no matter what logic you apply to it, regardless of
how hard you try to rationalize, it will always either
contradict one thing in another, usually multiple things at that, from
not only the manga, which is nearly always the case, but often even
within it's own storyline. Thus it becomes entirely impossible to even
pull a shred of logic out of anything involving GT, if we use logic
from GT, thus making it impossible to ever to come to any sort of
conclusion in any type of versus topic involving GT. This basically
renders the point of debating completely useless, and if it were to
become clear that ever solving the issues in that topic was logically
impossible, the staff team would close every single one of them. GT cannot overrule the canon. Ever.



Thus if we wish to debate, it will be using the manga to prove our points.



As for SSJ4 Goku (powered up) being stronger than SSJ Vegetto....he
certainly isn't stronger than a fusion that contains him. Goku did not
get literally hundreds upon hundreds of times stronger by the time GT
started (which would be required for him to ever be that strong, even with SSJ4).

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Prince Vegeta

But then we wouldn't be talking about SSJ4 Goku (since the only one in existence was created by Toei). And well, several statements were made in GT that gave us a pretty good idea how strong SSJ4 Goku is. Also SSJ4 Goku being stronger than Mystic Gohan isn't entirely impossible. It was stated that the SSJ4 level is beyond the limits of saiyans. And since the canon universe made no remark regarding the SSJ4 level... we can't comment on the fact about whether it's possible for SSJ4 Goku to surpass Mystic Gohan.

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Edward Elric- The Full Metal Alchemist

Quote of the year

SS2 Vegeto

Yet Goku is a creation of Akira Toriyama, and before GT was even created, Toei needed AT's permission.



I'd explain how such a level of power would contradict both the manga
and GT's own logic, but my past explanations have all practically been
essays, due to the sheer amount of problems with the situation. And I'm
far too tired to deal with it....

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Prince Vegeta

But the SSJ4 level was created by Toei.

I know how Goku being stronger than Gohan contradicts the manga, however Toei can easily make up an excuse such as the SSJ4 level is beyond the limits of saiyans (which I believe they did). Naturally and as far as we know there is no way for Goku to surpass Gohan. But for all we know there might be an "unnatural" way for this to happen. SSJ4 might me that "unnatural method." But also I believe Akira Toriyama gave Toei permission to create GT.

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Edward Elric- The Full Metal Alchemist

Quote of the year

SS2 Vegeto

You never even got my explanation....which I'm not bothering with right
now. I'm sure someone else will get around to it. Hopefully.



However, if people aren't content with the rules, they can take it up with the administrators, and run it by the founders.

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dragonofdarkness

i think super ss4 goku would win even though gotenks over powered goku in the past doesnt mean that gotenks is half ,fourth or even a third of goku in gt .

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to gain you have lose that is equivelint exchange

The Mighty Goku

Actually I read and heard somewhere that SS4 Goku was actually designed by Akira-Sensei. Akira-Sensei designed and drew alot of the characters in GT. And he has even said that if he were to create another series after Z, it probably would have went in the same direction as GT.

And Goku being stronger than Gohan does not contradict the manga in anyway. It was never stated that Gohan has the most potential, nor was it ever stated that there is even a "cap" on DBZ characters powers. Ultimate Gohan is just Gohan beyond his limits at that point...how many times has Goku gone beyond his limits, and its been stated numerous times in Z. Goku and Vegeta both have reached a "wall" in their power, and have broken it as well. Duo even says that he does not believe Z warriors have limits to how strong they can get, escpecially the saiyans. The word "potential" is never used once in the manga by the way. And it was never stated that Hybrids have more potential, but it was stated that they hold incredible power, but not more potential. Again, there is no potential in Dragonball. So saying Goku can't become stronger than Gohan is just plain ludacris.

They each have their positives:

Hybrids - Advance quicker than normal saiyans, hold incredible hidden powers

Saiyans - Incredible Love for fighting, much longer life span

Most Gifted Fighter: Goku

Greatest Dormant Power: Gohan

Fastest Gainer: Goten

If you want to argue more, go the "Gohan has the most potential" topic.

Anywayz SS4 Goku from GT's logic is far stronger than Buuhan....SS3 Gotenks is a bump in the road.

V3g3t0

Eventough I think SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Mystic Gohan , explain how Goku beying in GT stronger than Mystic Gohan contradicts the manga.

The Mighty Goku

It doesn't, but some people are under the impression that Z warriors have a limit to how strong they can get...which is total garabage. And they believe that Gohan has the highest limit, so then they say it is impossible for Goku to get stronger than Ultimate Gohan....I have already proved them wrong on my above post.

V3g3t0

It is stated that saiyans have infinite potential so nobody has a limit , meaning that every saiyan can surpass the other .

The only differences between the pure blooded saiyans and hibrids are the ones that you explained .

PerfectEnigma

Actually, Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru designed SSj4. He was part of Toei Animations.

As for the subject, I believe SSj4 Goku would beat SSj3 Gotenks. Old Kai stated SSj4 Goku was the strongest warrior he had ever seen. I also believe SSj3 Goku(Buu Crisis) was stronger than Mystic Gohan.

deckzone3000

I think SSj4 Goku would be much stronger. And since he has the skill and time advantage, I think it would be an easy fight for him.

20 years of training and a new level, I dont see the problem.

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Gohan during the cell games is a KID!
Gohan during the buu saga is a TEEN!

dragonofdarkness

well isnt fusion a time limited thing and if im thinking right gotenks got absorbed by buu and goku survived without being absorbed goku ss4 should be stronger

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to gain you have lose that is equivelint exchange

JerrodDRagon

ok if its gotenks vs Goku ss4, then Gotenks is a adult also meaning he's stronger!

Next is this Goku at the end of GT or after tha badi fight?

SS4 is no that good as a trasformation as the other one's were. WHY?

Because I bet SS3 Gotenks could have taken down Badi, because the only reason Goku SS3 could not take him down is becuase he was a kid lowering his power and only giving him a couple of mins at SS3!

Also if Gotenks had a couple of his ghosts hit Goku it would not be good for Goku since I think 4 ghost destoryed Super buu, meaning just 2 ghost could brake most of gokus bones making him weak enough to beat in a couple more mins.

But it just depends one what attacks they use! I mean look Goku and Piccolo beat Radtiz a guy twice as strong as them! SO anything could happen!

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Prince Vegeta

Actually Goku stated that Gotenks wouldn't stand a chance against Baby. Now whether Gotenks would be stronger in GT is debateable, but many people would agree that he'd be weaker. Though I don't think by that much.

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Edward Elric- The Full Metal Alchemist

Quote of the year