Broly

Is SS4 Goku equal with shin buu?

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LegendarySSJ7

Shin Boo would still drub SSj 4 Goku by quite a wide margin, as the controlled Golden Oozaru / SSj 4 Transformation would only result in around a 2x increase at the most (by my estimations), which is still far below Shin Boo's insignia of power.

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SS2 Vegeto

So far, I seem to have gotten accurate results by multiplying the
previous level of power by the number of the transformation......not
the initial transformation, of course, but rather after it's use has
been....umm, mastered. I generally place SSJ4 at 4 x FPSSJ3. By my
estimations, an accurate placement for Shin Buu would be.....5 x
FPSSJ3? I believe Shin Buu is stronger, but not by a large margin.

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Prince Vegeta

Personally I'd place ssj4 Son Goku much higher than Shin Boo. Seeing as Syn shenron was stated to be in another league when compared to all the previous villians (This would mean that Syn>Boo with Gohan). And it merely took the addition of Son Gohan, Son Goten and Trunks in order to place Son Goku above Syn. No matter how terrible GT's logic is one is forced to use it since there is no other ssj4 Son Goku in existence. And regarding the ssj4 power up, there is no evidence how big the power up is. Heck it was entirely up to Toei and for all we know they could have made a gap as grotesque as say 10x. Personally I feel that trying to estimate the power up (based off of the previous power ups) won't really get us anywhere. Since there is no evidence that the ssj4 power follows the previous powerups in that the power ups become less and less the farther the saiyan ascends. And well, it was ultimately up to Toei and they decided to vastly overrate Son Goku's power. Since he shouldn't be able to surpass Son Gohan's Mystic form. However he does so in GT (Which IMO is one of the great plotholes of the series). Personally, I'd place Son Goku at or around Boo with Gotenks in power.

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SS2 Vegeto

What the.....Omega's likely not that strong....I'd rather apply canon logic to GT than GT logic to the canon.

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Prince Vegeta

I was talking about Syn (who might I add is many times weaker than Omega). Anyways, it was a soilid statement made in GT. Even if you apply canon logic to GT you can't make a "hypothetical ssj4 Son Goku" that doesn't exist and say that's how strong he should be. The fact is, Toei ignored canon logics and in doing so they made Son Goku stronger than Son Gohan. And the only ssj4 Son Goku in existence is the one that was made by Toei. So we are forced (due to the absence of a canonic ssj4 son Goku) to use the non canonic one created by GT. The way I see it, it might be better to not talk about GT characters since we are forced to coincide with dreadfull logic. Anyways, that's why I'd place ssj4 Son Goku far above Shin Boo.

SS2 Vegeto, if you wish to continue this debate then might I suggest we do so in some other fashion? Perhaps the use of PM? That way we can have an easier discussion that won't get off topic.

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Sephiroth

As much as I hate GT logic and what they did I would also have too say that Super Saiyan 4 Goku win, Goku was over powered during G.T. in his base during the Super 17 saga he took out a Cell that said he was stronger then his Super Perfect form, so probably was almost on Majin Vegeta's level, so because of this IMO GT Goku is between the strength of Pre and Post RoSaT Gotenks, thats why I would say that Super Saiyan 4 Goku is slightly weaker then Gotenks Boo as impossible as it is by canon logic.

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The eyes of a madman glow with pure hatred as he looks towards his goal:

Of becoming a God.

SS2 Vegeto

Both of those are significantly weaker than base Shin Buu, so how is he
slightly weaker than Gotenks Buu?

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Sephiroth

What I ment was Base G.T. Goku=Base Gotenks (pre RoSaT) and SSj3 G.T. Goku= SSj3 Gotenks (Pre RoSaT if he was), and with a two times increase in strength increase that would put him a little lower then Gotenks Boo as a Super Saiyan 4.

This is why I hate GT because I don't see how Goku could gain such a strength increase.

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The eyes of a madman glow with pure hatred as he looks towards his goal:

Of becoming a God.

Prince Vegeta

You can look at it that way, seeing as Son Goku was far stronger than Cell and Frieza. We also have to consider that Son Goku wasn't fighting seriously, as once he tried to power up to his full power (in his base form) Hell started shaking apart. And he even stated that he'd overdo it if he was to power up (even within his base form).

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The Chibi Kiriyama

Forgive me if I go out on a tangent in my response. If Goku was sure that if he gave it 100% to the fat Boo he could beat him at SS3 that makes him stronger. The average multiplier I would give the difference between the fat Boo and Shin Boo is x5. The multiplier I would give SS4 after repeated viewings of it's power is x5. Now, given the fact that Goku was noticeably stronger and given the fact that there is no impact on his power when he is a child, I think it's simple mathematical deduction who ends up the victor in all of this. Even with no math involved, SS4 Goku wins.

I am now prepared for my lashing, MFG community.

SS2 Vegeto

I still believe that it's either a tie or Shin Buu by a bit.
Multiplying the number in the amount of increase by the number of the
transformation has always got me results accurate enough not to
contradict themselves one bit on a power level listing. There seems to
be an increasing gap between each level of super saiyan attained. Let's
assume base Goku has a power of 10. Multiplied by 50x (super saiyan)
it's now 500. Multiply the previous number of the multiplication by the
number of the next transformation (in this case 2, for super saiyan 2),
50x 2, and his power level is now 1000 (though there are inbetween
stages to this, different "grades" of super saiyan, this can be boosted
to 50x 2.5, resulting in 1500, to better fit certain situations). So
now we've assumed it's boosted to 1500, and the multiplication is 150x
from base. Multiply that multiplication by 3, for super saiyan 3, and
you've got a multiplication factor from the base of 450, thus resulting
in a power level of 4500. For super saiyan 4, 450x 4 results in a
massive multiplication factor (from the base) of 1800, resulting in a
colossal power level of 18,000. However, I've always viewed Shin Buu as
atleast 5 times the strength of FPSSJ3 Goku. 5x 4500 results in a power
level of 22,500. This would make SSJ4 Goku's power level 4500 points
lower than Shin Buu's, which is the exact power level of FPSSJ3 Goku
(or atleast the one used to represent his level of power, so as to
simplify the multiplications) according to my theory, which works
perfectly with my previous post in which I assumed that SSJ4 Goku was
one times the power of SSJ3 Goku, below that of Super Buu. It's based
on speculation, but it seems to work perfectly with the manga.



Note that this is still under the assumption that base Goku is
significantly weaker than his super saiyan form, even after hitting
that transformation's limits as a FPSSJ. I generally theorize, that
since Goku and SSJ Goku are the exact same being, as he trains in SSJ
form, his base power will still increase along with it, thus not
changing the multiplication factor, yet increasing his power as a
whole, considering he has only one body, and that one body is
undergoing whatever training it's undergoing, regardless of what form
it's in, thus not having an impact on the multiplication factor, but
rather, increasing the individual's power as a whole. If he trains in
base.....well his power will still increase as a whole, though he may
not have much practice with controlling his power in a transformed
state. Basically, I tend to find this much more logical, and from what
I see, it doesn't seem to contradict the manga either.



Well, those are my thoughts.

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Prince Vegeta

Let's assume for a second that that in fact is the power up for ssj4. I'm not saying it isn't (although you yourself did state that it was your own opinion). Anyways kudos to you for coming up with it. However, this is the part that I think you are missing. Son Goku's base was far stronger than Kazentai Cell and Frieza. In fact I believe it was stated that Cell and Frieza were considerabley stronger than that of before. Son Goku was merely toying around and yet he was easily ahead of both Cell and Frieza. Personally taking all of that into consideration, I'd say that Son Goku's base is perhaps stronger ssj2 Vegeta "Bobbidi's mark." I'd say that he'd be at or around Base Gotenks in power. After applying the ssj power ups, Son Goku ssj3 would be around ssj3 Gotenks (Since Son Gokus base is around Base Gotenks) Also we have to assume that the ssj power ups are consistent for every saiyan. Moving on, this would make ssj4 Son Goku 4x stronger than ssj3 Gotenks according to your logic. Personally as I said before I'd place ssj4 Son Goku at or around Boo with Gotenks. None of this is written in stone, so it's open to speculation.

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Quote of the year

SS2 Vegeto

Yet, if my theory is correct, and both the base and transformations
power up simultaneously as one body, then he could have atleast been
far stronger than Freeza (100% final form), and even the androids by
the time he had completely mastered the transformation he used to
defeate him, and achieved two more transformations since that. By the
Buu saga, I'd atleast assume that FPSSJ Goku could beat, or atleast be
a match for Perfect Cell (powered up). Though he was able to hold his
own against both of them in his base form, am I correct in assuming
that he did eventually go super saiyan during that fight? He has
powered up quite a bit from back in the days when he went up against
Buu (twenty years of training can do that to you). However, I doubt he
could get...say....100 times stronger in his base form over that time?
But by the fact that he was able to hold his own, dodge attacks, and
even play around without transforming does say something. This is why I
theorized that, if not less, he could possibly equal Shin Buu in power.
If his base powered up enough for his SSJ4 transformation to power up
to the point that if he stayed at his previous power, would be akin to
adding a another number onto the multiplication factor, representing
the power of the previous transformation (SSJ3) then I feel that it
could indeed justify that scene.

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Prince Vegeta

I partly understand what you are saying. There's no way in hell Son Goku's base could have gotten strong to a point that he could be compared to Base Gotenks. However, Toei decided to vastly overpower Son Goku and in reality it is up to them. They can make Son Goku a god if they want to. So as I said before, since Son Goku's base in GT is around Gotenks is power, then his ssj3 form would rival ssj3 gotenks. And furthermore his ssj4 would be even stronger than that (Also since he becomes an adult after his transformations). Putting that asside there was a direct statement made in GT (by the narrator) that Syn shenron is stronger than any other enemy. And as we all know, Boo with Gohan was indeed an enemy. Thus Syn would be stronger than Boo with Gohan. Bye the way, this statement was made in the Japanese version not the dub. And as I pointed out before Toei created GT and they can make any character in their series to maintain any amount of chi. So it may canonically be impossible, but there isn't a canonic ssj4 Son Goku that we can use. So we are forced to use the one GT concocted (Otherwise why entitle this topic "Super Saiya-jin 4 Goku VS Shin Boo" when one isn't willing to accept the power he posseses according to Toei? I mean there is no other ssj4 Son Goku entity that can be used other than Toei's.). And it just so happens that the one GT concocted is stronger than he could have ever imagined to become in the canon universe. Are we on the same page here, if not I am completely willing to discuss this by more appropriate means such as PM.

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Quote of the year