JerrodDRagon

^What Kid Goku is not as strong as Gotenks, I dont care whaqt Toei says, there is no way in hell that Kid Goku could beat Gotenks EVER!

Adutl Goku is a diffenent stroy but since he's only in 2 episodes of GT it does not matter.

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Prince Vegeta

Unfortunately it's not up to you it's up to Toei. And he may not necesserily be stronger but according to Toei he's at the very least close to Gotenks. This is the primary reason I hate debating about GT, the logic takes you nowhere but in an endless circle.

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Edward Elric- The Full Metal Alchemist

Quote of the year

SS2 Vegeto

Once again, I prefer to apply canon logic to GT, than GT logic to the
canon, to avoid that endless circle. The best we can possibly do is
assume certain statements are false, and judge what he have been able
to see in forest of plot-holes that is GT, by canon standards. Besides,
I feel my explanation can actually patch up more of them, in comparison
to basing it off that one statement, thus working better even with a
filler series. In debates involving GT, I'm usually forced to find the
most logical alternative.

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Prince Vegeta

Don't get me wrong, I too prefer to use canon logic as much as possible (as oppose to non canon logic). Though I personally feel that we have to use GT logic to (at the very least) a small extent whilst making that GT/canon Dragonball comparison. I however do want to point out that it wasn't merely that one statement but also the fact Son Goku (at his base) was shown to posses an amount of chi close to that of Base Gotenks'. But to be fair I think it'd be appropriate to leave this topic as debeatable. We should continue debating (if it is to our desire), however we can't say that so and so is right and so and so is wrong. Topics such as this require an ounce opinion to bring out the "final touch" (as I like to call it), in order to determine the outcome. So we can look at this topic and say that we're both correct because idealy topics such as this have various outcomes depending on how you look at things. I think we can both agree on that.

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JerrodDRagon

Well Shin buu could just absorb Goku like he did Gohan so I still think Super buu would win.

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deckzone3000

Since I think SSj4 Goku is stronger than Mystic Gohan, obviously I think Goku is stronger than Super Buu.

The little guy kicked the crap out of his super saiyan sons, frieza, and cell in just his base form.

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Gohan during the buu saga is a TEEN!

JerrodDRagon

Umm Picoolo could kick the crap out of them even Gotens could.

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The Chibi Kiriyama

You're forgetting that Goku was fighting them both only in their powered-up state (Cell's power should have been much more intense), and that in GT there is no Ultimate Gohan. Where this assumption is coming from that he's close to Gotenks in power is beyond me, though I'm open to all dialogue quotes or event synopsis that are needed to prove such.

Prince Vegeta

Well for one, Syn Shenron was stated to be stronger than all previous enemies. This would mean that Syn>Boo with Gohan. Furthermore since Son Goku (After recieving energy from the half saiyans) was demolishing Syn. Son Goku ssj4 (after recieving energy)>Boo with Gohan. Now keep in mind that three ssj's provided Son Goku energy. If you were to subtract their power from Boo with Gohan (three ssj's would seem like nothing). The remaining power would at the very least be on par with Gotenks Boo. And this remaining power would equal Son Goku (before power up), aka ssj4 Goku. So as you can see it was pretty much directly stated. The other way you can look at this is that base Goku was far stronger than Cell and Frieza. Also Cell and Frireza were stated to be stronger than they ever were. Also Son Goku used very little effort in that fight. Keep the following in mind, Cell would quite possibly be around a ssj2 in power (since Kazentai Cell was a little bit weaker than a ssj2 and since GT Cell was stated to be even stronger). Because Son Goku was literally owning both Cell (who's around a ssj2 as I explained) and Frieza without using much effort at all. I personally would place his power above ssj2 Vegeta "Bobbidi's mark." Thus his power would be at or around base Gotenks. Thus ssj4 Son Goku would be far stronger than ssj3 Gotenks, since his ssj3 power would be on par with Gotenks (according to Toei). Thus after multiplying the ssj4 power up and taking into account that once Goku reaches ssj4 he regains his adult body, ssj4 Son Goku would be immensly stronger than Shin Boo. Of course this is how I view the situation and as I stated in my previous post, "there is no right or wrong answer regarding GT's horrific logic."

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JerrodDRagon

Ok first off Vegeta stated "im a super syain" to Frizea but he was not he JUST STATED It. WITH NO PROOF.

second syn was nothing specal sinc ehe lost to kid goku after fighting 6 other dragons.

Next Goku SS4 may have been strong but Shin Buu can absorb even th emost powerful warriors like Gotenks, Gogeta, and Gohan.

So I think Shin buu would win becuase he would absorb him.

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SS2 Vegeto

But to accept that logic, you'd have to completely discard the canon logic.....>_>



I'd rather falsify one statement. GT characters say a lot of things.

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Kenshyuk

SS2 Vegeto is right. If GT characters were as powerful as Toei credits them to be, then you would have to throw logic out the window entirely. GT is bloated with a plethorea of contradictions, whether they be power or continuity-wise, and here is an example:

Super Oozaru Bejiita-Bebi's Gyrakaki-ho(approximate spelling. I can never be bothered to go back and check these damn books nowadays. *shrugs*) couldn't even destroy the Earth when it struck, and seeing as the anime, earlier, sort of established that one's Oozaru form yields 10 times the power of their pre-transformed state, and if Bejiita, with a Power Reading of only 18,000 could strike and take out a planet, then this would put Oozaru Bejiita-Bebi at below it, and Bejiita-Bebi at 1,800-. And this would put the base Saiya-jins at...what now? 10? 20? And the humans, not including abnormal, ki-wielding ones like Yamucha and "th' crew," would be at...just WUT? 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000001?

Same goes for the rest of GT. Just what was Toei smoking of when they conjured this up??! Same goes for fillers and..just about everything after the Furiza arc. With the way that Power Levels were skyrocketing...all the Super-Saiya-jins should be taking walks around the universe, playing chess with the sun, and splitting said universe in half with their pinkie fingers. Like, really, lol. The Seru(though no as bad as GT or Buu by any means, but still), Buu, and ESPECIALLY GT were either written by a druken Toriyama-san, or Toei somehow gained access to brain-control technologies to control each and every one of Toriyama-sensei's actions. These plots, if you can call them that, are..just so plain and ridiculously illogical, honestly poor portrayals of these super-powered beings' abilities. Period.

SS2 Vegeto

The only thing that makes the powers from the manga slightly illogical
is that someone like.....under 30x the strength of a normal human can
wipe out the moon.....which is almost a third of the earth in size.
However, in Z, the comparisons can atleast be done flawlessly. You can
actually factor in the SSJ4 power into the canon hiarchy of
power....however, you basically have to disregard a few statements in
GT to come anywhere close to logic.



I did like the Buu saga though....not for the plot, which was nothing
special at all, but for the fact that it makes an interesting video
game....and debate subject (though that sort of goes without mention).

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deckzone3000

That's not helping make Goku sound any weaker. lol

I don't understand what that first part is about, are you saying Cell wasn't giving his all?

I know there is no Ultimate Gohan in GT, I never said there was.

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Gohan during the cell games is a KID!
Gohan during the buu saga is a TEEN!

Kenshyuk

I'd think twice about that SS2..For example. a battle-worn Furiiza clearly insinuates that he would easily survive the planet's explosion, only losing relatively little ki in the process, and yet, when he arrives on Earth with his father, Torankusu vaporizes him in a single blast after a series of strokes, which slice and dice him until he becomes a set of cubes.(albeit he was surpressing his power..but still, being battle worn on Nameku-sei from both the strain of maintaining his full power, injuries, etc. can't put him too far from the way he was on Earth) And yet, when Jinzouningen Juroukugou("#16"), who is leaps and bounds ahead of any form of Furiza or Torankusu, apparently, uses his strongest blast, The Hell's Flash, or as it was, for some reason, re-named in the Viz translations as "Inferno Blast," and it doesn't even, like, destroy a 10th of the Earth's crust. That alone throws the whole idea of the manga being flawless out the window. And then, like in GT's failure to implement logic into the planet-destroying busines..Fat Buu uses a Kamehameha and it destroys, like, a tenth of the Earth. WTF? This would put him at below 1,800...and if SSj 3 Gokuu is around his level, and can annhilate Chibi Buu in one blast, who, in one uncharged blast, could destroy the Earth with ease...Oi, j00=phailed.