Son Goku vs Son Gohan - Page 4

The Mighty Goku · 08-12-2006

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Originally Posted by The Chibi Kiriyama

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Originally Posted by The Mighty Goku

What makes you think that Goku stops receiveing zenkais, just because getting knocked from Vegeta "supposedly" did not make him stronger......He got knocked out, instead of beaten to a bloody pulp, big difference. Saiyans get stronger from "near death" not just by being knocked out. And Goku did not receive a zenkai after Kid Buu either, because his Ki was bolted up from the dragon, he had his wounds healed, but he was still fine. Goku still receives zenkais and he still gets stronger...if not, then why would he want to train after Buu.

Let me explain a zenkai then- zenkais are not magic methods that make the user marginally stronger. The proper term would rather be a 'auto-evolution'. The zenkai we see him experience in the Freeza Saga just from a beatdown that pales in comparison to what Vegeta experienced is massive- it makes him go from inferior to Captain Ginyu to having the ability to fight Freeza's true form on equal grounds. Given this, nothing we see in the Cell Saga constitutes as a zenkai, unless you really want to say Goku grew in power enough from his beatdown from No. 19 to make him not being tremendously afraid of Cell's incomplete form as he was at the new Buu possible (which I'm not going to refute, as that particular portion is never really defined as viral decomposition or physical damage). This said, in no way does it mean that Goku cannot get any stronger. I am stating that the possibility is minute that his body receives anything that post-Freeza would be considered a zenkai. He can definitely get stronger through training, but the amount of power his body will tap into through his auto-evolutionary mechanism is no longer meriting the term 'zenkai'.

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That is an assumption on your part, Gohan being taken above his limits in his "current state" does not mean he can't get any weaker, and it does not mean he can't get stronger. Gohan was taken above his limits in his current condition, that was his limits that his body could endure at that time. Z warriors don't have "caps" on their powerlevels, they can keep training to get stronger. So saying that Goku becoming stronger than Gohan is a plot hole in GT is just plain silly. It was never stated that hybrids have the most potential, nor is the word POTENTIAL ever used once in the DBZ manga. Hybrids were stated to have incredible hidden powers. Thats It. And the whole "power fluctuating", that was never mention...EVER. So I don't buy that, cuz that was never stated either.

Latent power is different than potential. Latent power is the power that lays untapped in a fighter's body. Potential is the possibility that they could tap into said power. Neither the former Kaio-shin nor the Great Elder of Namek tapped into Gohan's potential. They tapped into his latent (dormant) power and allowed him better control of it. You are correct in saying that it is never stated that Gohan cannot keep on getting stronger, but it takes simple logical inference to realize that it was inferred- Gohan was beaten so badly that Buu (Gotenks Prime) was only moments away from annihilating him. Dende then heals him. For any Saiyan with power to still be tapped, this would mean a zenkai. But this is the line that Buu makes only two panels afterwards:

Majin Buu: Well, you're only back to your former ineptitude. You didn't get any stronger...you only prolonged your own suffering...

When one makes the simple inference without having it fed to them, this means that (Saiyan biology taken into account) the former Kaio-shin's power tap brought all of the latent power (not the potential to achieve it, the actual power itself) that Gohan could possibly have. Otherwise his beatdown would have incurred such a massive zenkai, which I discussed is an auto-evolution to improve anyone with Saiyan biology, and Gohan would have been noticeably stronger. All this taken into account, the Gohan we see in glasses and slacks is the same one who fought Buu. There is no dip in power; hence my inference that there would not be a power fluctuation in tandem.

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But if Gohan never got weaker like you said, then why would Goku even have to train Buu. We all know that Goku wanted to have a challenge, but he still wanted Uub to be the new protector, so why would he want that if Gohan was the strongest. Gohan isn't going to sit on his butt if someone attacks the earth, he will take action.

As I said in my previous post, it's not that Gohan will sit on his laurels. It's that Goku has two things going for making Uub the protector of the Earth- creating an active hero who isn't mired in the peaceful life and won't become complacent while basically breeding his ultimate challenge. Vegeta realized that Goku's offer wasn't selfless at all:

Vegeta: Heh, heh...Kakarot, I know you too well...this isn't about protecting the Earth!

Feel free to refute it, but Goku's next statement makes Vegeta's assumption set in stone:

Son Goku: Oob, when you're training's complete...promise to fight me!

Oob: Uh...sure...

Son Goku: I've been waiting years for this!

The dialogue speaks for itself; the only reason I even delve into Goku training Uub for anything outside of an ulterior motive is because I'd rather adhere to Toriyama's belief that he does things kindheartedly.

Well, Like you said, Gohan's auto-evolutionary system was no longer meriting the term zenkai. I get what your saying about his Latent Power, but Gohan could still get stronger if he trained. I believe there are no limits to how strong a Z warrior can get, the word potential is never used. So Akira-Sensei never implied that there is a limit. So Goku getting stronger than Gohan would not be a plot-hole. Just because he had his latent power awakened does not mean he can't get weaker through the years if he does not train. I believe if Vegeta trained long enough he could surpass Ultimate Gohan....Z warriors don't have limits, Goku has hit supposed "limits" many times, and he has always broken it.

I believe Goku was the strongest at the End Of Z, thats my opinion. Akira-Sensei left it open for debate...Goku trained for 10 years, Gohan did not. So I believe Goku in the end was the strongest non-fused warrior.

Arros · 08-13-2006

SSJ kid Gohan>SSJ Goku

SSJ Adult Gohan<SSJ Goku

SSJ 2 kid Gohan>=< SSJ 2 Goku

SSJ 2 Adult Gohan<SSJ 2 Goku

Ultimate Gohan>SSJ 3 Goku

I like gohan better than Goku

Tyro · 08-13-2006

Goku and Vegeta were stated to be stronger than SSj2 Gohan at the Cell Games.

Arros · 08-13-2006

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Originally Posted by Tyro

Goku and Vegeta were stated to be stronger than SSj2 Gohan at the Cell Games.

Do you mean during the Buu Saga, because SSJ 2 gohan during the Cell Games was stronger than Goku and vegeta.

Prince Vegeta · 08-13-2006

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Originally Posted by rero onyx

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Originally Posted by Tyro

Goku and Vegeta were stated to be stronger than SSj2 Gohan at the Cell Games.

Do you mean during the Buu Saga, because SSJ 2 gohan during the Cell Games was stronger than Goku and vegeta.

Dragonball Z voulme 23 (page 76) Piccolo: "He is more powerful than Gohan when he fought Cell. "He was refering to Vegeta whilst he was fighting Boo.

So as you can see you're quite wrong.

Arros · 08-13-2006

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Originally Posted by Prince Vegeta

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Originally Posted by rero onyx

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Originally Posted by Tyro

Goku and Vegeta were stated to be stronger than SSj2 Gohan at the Cell Games.

Do you mean during the Buu Saga, because SSJ 2 gohan during the Cell Games was stronger than Goku and vegeta.

Dragonball Z voulme 23 (page 76) Piccolo: "He is more powerful than Gohan when he fought Cell. "He was refering to Vegeta whilst he was fighting Boo.

So as you can see you're quite wrong.

I'm talking about Gohan, vegeta, goku during the Cell Games in which Gohan was stronger. In the Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta are stronger.

Mechanical · 08-15-2006

You're talking of two different things.

Rero Onyx is talking about Cell Saga, when SSJ2 Gohan was stronger than Vegeta and Goku - True.

Tyro is saying that both Vegeta and Goku (in the Buu Saga) were stronger than Gohan when he beat Cell - True, because Goku and Vegeta evoluted and Gohan lost some of his power.

I read the whole topic and I totally agree with Tyro. In my opinion, Tyro showed the best proofs.

But, this discussion is quite easy to understand:

It has been stated over and over again that Gohan's potential is bigger than Goku's. Therefore, when Gohan had his potential unlocked, Goku could not surpass him anymore. It doesn't matter in what stage Goku is. Goku can reach Super Sayain 7000 but he won't beat Gohan, cuz his potential is smaller than his son's. Example:

Gohan's Max Potential - 900,000,000,000 (these are not veredict numbers, I'm just using them to a better understanding)

Goku's Max Potential - 700,000,000,000

Even if Goku could reach Super Sayain 7000 he could not surpass 700,000,000,000 PL and therefore he could not be as strong as Gohan, whose PL would be 900,000,000,000.

Also, not as important as what I said, but it was stated that the one who took the Z Sword from the rock would have the power to beat Buu. And who did it? Gohan did.

The Mighty Goku · 08-15-2006

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Originally Posted by Mechanical

You're talking of two different things.

Rero Onyx is talking about Cell Saga, when SSJ2 Gohan was stronger than Vegeta and Goku - True.

Tyro is saying that both Vegeta and Goku (in the Buu Saga) were stronger than Gohan when he beat Cell - True, because Goku and Vegeta evoluted and Gohan lost some of his power.

I read the whole topic and I totally agree with Tyro. In my opinion, Tyro showed the best proofs.

But, this discussion is quite easy to understand:

It has been stated over and over again that Gohan's potential is bigger than Goku's. Therefore, when Gohan had his potential unlocked, Goku could not surpass him anymore. It doesn't matter in what stage Goku is. Goku can reach Super Sayain 7000 but he won't beat Gohan, cuz his potential is smaller than his son's. Example:

Gohan's Max Potential - 900,000,000,000 (these are not veredict numbers, I'm just using them to a better understanding)

Goku's Max Potential - 700,000,000,000

Even if Goku could reach Super Sayain 7000 he could not surpass 700,000,000,000 PL and therefore he could not be as strong as Gohan, whose PL would be 900,000,000,000.

Also, not as important as what I said, but it was stated that the one who took the Z Sword from the rock would have the power to beat Buu. And who did it? Gohan did.

I'm sorry, but it is never stated once in the ENTIRE DRAGONBALL MANGA that Gohan has the most potential. Acutally, the WORD POTENTIAL is never used once in the DBZ Manga. Akira-Sensei has made it clear that the Z warriors do not have a "cap" to how powerful they can really get.

So saying that it is impossible for Goku to surpass Gohan is just silly. Again, there is no "cap" to saiyan or any warrior's power in the DB universe. Gohan was taken beyond his limits...in that current state. How many times has it BEEN STATED that Goku has gone beyond his previous limits and restrictions....both Goku and Vegeta have done it many times. There is no potential, there is just different preference to each warrior....

Most Gifted Fighter: Goku

Greast Dormant Power: Gohan

Fastest Gainer: Goten

Best Tactitcian: Piccolo

Most Ruthless: Vegeta

And Gohan pulling out the Z sword does not mean anything....Goku could have pulled the Z sword out in his Base form if he wanted too.....and guess who was the one who defeated Buu...it wasn't Gohan.

Again, there is no "cap"...Goku can get stronger than Ultimtate Gohan if he trained long enough...heck Vegeta could too.

Tyro · 08-15-2006

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Originally Posted by The Mighty Goku

I'm sorry, but it is never stated once in the ENTIRE DRAGONBALL MANGA that Gohan has the most potential. Acutally, the WORD POTENTIAL is never used once in the DBZ Manga.

Just incase you mean the entire DB/Z story all together, here is something maybe you missed:

DragonBall Vol. 13 Page 95:

Karin: Meaning that if you've brought out all your potential strength through training, the water of the gods cannot make you any stronger.

Therefore, it has infact been stated before.

Arros · 08-15-2006

ah, I understand now. Now that I think about it wouldn't Cell have the most potential. He has the cells of Gohan and so he might have the potential Gohan contains. Then there's the added bonus of the Saiyan, Namek, Changeling cells in him. It was just a thought and I don't want to get off topic.

Prince Vegeta · 08-15-2006

In the canon universe, there is no way Son Goku can surpass Mystic Gohan. However, he does so in GT by turning SSJ4. According to Toei, SSJ4 is beyond the limits of saiyans. So according to them SSJ4 Goku>Goku's max potential. Whether that's possible is something in itself but it explains why SSJ4 Goku is as strong as he is.

V3g3t0 · 08-15-2006

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Originally Posted by Prince Vegeta

In the canon universe, there is no way Son Goku can surpass Mystic Gohan. However, he does so in GT by turning SSJ4. According to Toei, SSJ4 is beyond the limits of saiyans. So according to them SSJ4 Goku>Goku's max potential. Whether that's possible is something in itself but it explains why SSJ4 Goku is as strong as he is.

I don't know what "cannon universe" you're talking about but in the Dragonball/Z cannon universe it is stated and shown that a warrior has no limit .

-Dranet fanslation removed-
http://img302.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ialcrapyd7.png

Plus in Dragon Ball the holy water suposdley brought Goku at his limit but by the end of DBZ he got about 100 milion times stronger ? lol
(I suggest you read the rules regarding the Dranet fanslation scans found in this and this thread. --LegendarySSj7)

The Mighty Goku · 08-19-2006

[quote user="V3g3t0"] [quote user="Prince Vegeta"]In the canon universe, there is no way Son Goku can surpass Mystic Gohan. However, he does so in GT by turning SSJ4. According to Toei, SSJ4 is beyond the limits of saiyans. So according to them SSJ4 Goku>Goku's max potential. Whether that's possible is something in itself but it explains why SSJ4 Goku is as strong as he is.[/quote]
I don't know what "cannon universe" you're talking about but in the Dragonball/Z cannon universe it is stated and shown that a warrior has no limit .
-Dranet fanslation removed-
http://img302.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ialcrapyd7.png
Plus in Dragon Ball the holy water suposdley brought Goku at his limit but by the end of DBZ he got about 100 milion times stronger ? lol
(I suggest you read the rules regarding the Dranet fanslation scans found in this and this thread. --LegendarySSj7)
[/quote]
He just proved that Goku can surpass Ultimate Gohan.
So Potential has been said before in the DBZ manga.
And, Tyro just proved another point...Goku was suppose to be at Full Potential after drinking the water...yet his strength still increased...drastically.

V3g3t0 · 08-19-2006

Eventough the water was supposed to bring Goku at his limits he got about 100 milion times stronger by the end of DBZ . Take your own conclusions .
Plus it's stated that Saiyans have infinite potential .

Mechanical · 08-19-2006

Well, then there is a big plothole there. Sayians have infinite potential and the holly water brought Goku to his limits (which he does not have, because Sayains' have infinite potential).
Regarding this and as Goku is a full-blooded Sayain and he drank the holly water, when he faced Raditz he could beat him in no-time, he could even beat Majin Buu at that time.

08-13-2006	#47 (permalink)
Arros Bleach Ranked (20) Captain Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: NC, USA Posts: 1,433 Rep Power: 15	Re: Son Goku vs Son Gohan SSJ kid Gohan>SSJ Goku SSJ Adult Gohan<SSJ Goku SSJ 2 kid Gohan>=< SSJ 2 Goku SSJ 2 Adult Gohan<SSJ 2 Goku Ultimate Gohan>SSJ 3 Goku I like gohan better than Goku __________________ Kenpachi is the most badass character ever. He's the kind of guy who would write his own name in the Death Note and then procede to beat the crap out of Yagami with it.

08-13-2006	#48 (permalink)
Tyro (19) Mastered Super Saiyan Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Somerset, Kentucky Posts: 1,043 Rep Power: 7	Re: Son Goku vs Son Gohan Goku and Vegeta were stated to be stronger than SSj2 Gohan at the Cell Games.

08-15-2006	#52 (permalink)
Mechanical (17) Super Saiyan Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 760 Rep Power: 5	Re: Son Goku vs Son Gohan You're talking of two different things. Rero Onyx is talking about Cell Saga, when SSJ2 Gohan was stronger than Vegeta and Goku - True. Tyro is saying that both Vegeta and Goku (in the Buu Saga) were stronger than Gohan when he beat Cell - True, because Goku and Vegeta evoluted and Gohan lost some of his power. I read the whole topic and I totally agree with Tyro. In my opinion, Tyro showed the best proofs. But, this discussion is quite easy to understand: It has been stated over and over again that Gohan's potential is bigger than Goku's. Therefore, when Gohan had his potential unlocked, Goku could not surpass him anymore. It doesn't matter in what stage Goku is. Goku can reach Super Sayain 7000 but he won't beat Gohan, cuz his potential is smaller than his son's. Example: Gohan's Max Potential - 900,000,000,000 (these are not veredict numbers, I'm just using them to a better understanding) Goku's Max Potential - 700,000,000,000 Even if Goku could reach Super Sayain 7000 he could not surpass 700,000,000,000 PL and therefore he could not be as strong as Gohan, whose PL would be 900,000,000,000. Also, not as important as what I said, but it was stated that the one who took the Z Sword from the rock would have the power to beat Buu. And who did it? Gohan did.

08-15-2006	#55 (permalink)
Arros Bleach Ranked (20) Captain Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: NC, USA Posts: 1,433 Rep Power: 15	Re: Son Goku vs Son Gohan ah, I understand now. Now that I think about it wouldn't Cell have the most potential. He has the cells of Gohan and so he might have the potential Gohan contains. Then there's the added bonus of the Saiyan, Namek, Changeling cells in him. It was just a thought and I don't want to get off topic. __________________ Kenpachi is the most badass character ever. He's the kind of guy who would write his own name in the Death Note and then procede to beat the crap out of Yagami with it.

08-19-2006	#58 (permalink)
The Mighty Goku (9) Namekian Warrior Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 100 Rep Power: 3	Re: Son Goku vs Son Gohan [quote user="V3g3t0"] [quote user="Prince Vegeta"]In the canon universe, there is no way Son Goku can surpass Mystic Gohan. However, he does so in GT by turning SSJ4. According to Toei, SSJ4 is beyond the limits of saiyans. So according to them SSJ4 Goku>Goku's max potential. Whether that's possible is something in itself but it explains why SSJ4 Goku is as strong as he is.[/quote] I don't know what "cannon universe" you're talking about but in the Dragonball/Z cannon universe it is stated and shown that a warrior has no limit . -Dranet fanslation removed- http://img302.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ialcrapyd7.png Plus in Dragon Ball the holy water suposdley brought Goku at his limit but by the end of DBZ he got about 100 milion times stronger ? lol (I suggest you read the rules regarding the Dranet fanslation scans found in this and this thread. --LegendarySSj7) [/quote] He just proved that Goku can surpass Ultimate Gohan. So Potential has been said before in the DBZ manga. And, Tyro just proved another point...Goku was suppose to be at Full Potential after drinking the water...yet his strength still increased...drastically.

08-19-2006	#59 (permalink)
V3g3t0 (12) Saiyan Prince Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 223 Rep Power: 3	Re: Son Goku vs Son Gohan Eventough the water was supposed to bring Goku at his limits he got about 100 milion times stronger by the end of DBZ . Take your own conclusions . Plus it's stated that Saiyans have infinite potential .

08-19-2006	#60 (permalink)
Mechanical (17) Super Saiyan Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 760 Rep Power: 5	Re: Son Goku vs Son Gohan Well, then there is a big plothole there. Sayians have infinite potential and the holly water brought Goku to his limits (which he does not have, because Sayains' have infinite potential). Regarding this and as Goku is a full-blooded Sayain and he drank the holly water, when he faced Raditz he could beat him in no-time, he could even beat Majin Buu at that time.