Dupe of USSJed

So if Chou Gohan used the Kikoho, would it also be slightly weaker than Semiperfect Cell? What about his Kamehameha by comparison? Would it still be, as it was stated earlier, Dog Piss compared to the Kikoho?

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Majuub

1- Actually, it was to stop Shin Buu's attack on Dende, not on Gohan.

2- It doesn't matter, Goku is a better fighter than Tienshinhan, he perfected the Kamehameha, he has even his own variations and the so called Megamehameha. Not saying the Kamehameha is better than the Neo Kikoho, but still, a technic used by Tienshinhan can't be 50x more powerful than a technic used by Goku, a fighter who outclasses Tienshinhan in pretty much every area save for badlness.

3- Vegeto didn't even want to get hit by the attack, Shin Buu also commented on how dangerous was this technic. It is actually better than anything anyone ever layed. Gotenks showed the best and most original technics, although they were silly if they were used properly by a more skilled fighter, they would be the ultimate technics.

4- The Kienzan sharpness that provides the multiplier? I already explained you Ki attacks don't have multiplier because different persons can execute them differently. Do you seriously think the Neo Kikoho would have the same multiplier if it was used by Yamcha? No because he has no mastery of it. SSJ multiplier is pretty much the same for everyone. Saying Ki attacks have set multipliers is like saying punches and kicks have multipliers.

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Dupe of USSJed

Fuck, I am so sick to death of everyone just making these bullshit assumptions. Everywhere I look theres someone stating something like this as fact. I know I'm not 100% innocent either, but can we please make an effort to cut the crap?

Anyway, what if Yamcha had the exact level of mastery that Tien had, would the attack do more damage, less damage, same damage or what?

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the predator

1. Whatever, we see it happen more than once and its plenty powerful

2. So what if Goku is the better fighter? This is not about Goku vs Tien this is about Shin Kikoho vs Kamehameha and regardless of how much Goku outclassed Tien it does not figure into the shin kikoho's mastery over the kamehameha! As for your 'fact' that Tien can't have a technique that much greater than Goku's well...I can't even name ONE technique that Goku created all by himself while Tien has created super-effective techniques all on his own so please don't try to rule out the fact that the shin kikoho could possibly kick the kamehameha's ass 50x + over

3. Besides the kamikaze attack I don't think he had a good technique to his arsenal, that doughnut thing might be good too but meh Tien created far more useful, tactical techniques than Gotenks (Tayoken, multiform blablabla). Super Ghost Kamikaze attack is a great technique but if you look at it carefully its really all about guided ki blasts only they have the characteristics of a ghost clone to confuse the opponent, they're really just sokidans.

4. I didn't say they had 'set' multipliers. But they DO have multipliers if Yamcha used the shin kikoho his lack of mastery of it would give him a less impressive multiplier but this is just like SSJ/2nd Grade/3rd Grade/MSSJ, it all depends on mastery. And if a punch had more power than its user than YES its a multiplier

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Majuub

Well, I have yet to see evidence that the different forms have work differently for everyone. Usually, if Goku and Vegeta are equal at base, they remain equal in their SSJ and SSJ2 state. If Goku is a notch in his base form, the difference will remain the same if he transforms. The difference is MSSJ or regular SSJ. I'm pretty sure even yourself my friend have the same multiplier for everyone else.

Well, it depends. If Yamcha has the same level of mastery but a much weaker PL, the multiplier would probably remains the same. That's the point, attacks can have different users who puts a different amount of power behind the technics. If Goku goes MSSJ, he puts just as much effort as Vegeta or Gohan to go MSSJ, he does not have a different multiplier even if he's much stronger. Unless we have evidences that it works differently for everyone, I don't see why we would put different multipliers for everyone.


To the predator:

Plenty times?? We have two instances, the first one being a very weird exemple and the second one being irrelevant since that blast could have a PL even weaker than Shin Buu himself. That's another point, the characters can fire Ki blasts weaker than themseleves, the SSJ multiplier can't make the character weaker. There isn't a multiplier because it all depends on how the attack is done, how much power there is behind, how much power the user has left etc.

So what?? That's the whole point, Goku is better at everything and Tienshinhan for whatever reason creates an attack 50x more powerful? I would have said nothing had it ben 2-3x, but 50x is simply a joke. He can't have technics greater than Goku, but 50x greater? Where did you get that from, because he pushed Cell his technic must multiply his PL by 150x? Also, Tienshinhan was using more of his Ki when he was blasting the Kikoho on Cell than when he used it against Shin Buu's attack on Dende. A technic depends on the user's own power. Even if Goku is multiple times stronger than everyone else, his SSJ state will be just as effective as compared to that of everyone. He can't decide one day to put 60% power in his SSJ state and decide the other day to put 34% power. With Ki attacks it is possible though, someone can put 100%, 10%, 23% etc. How can there be a set multiplier when you pretty much decide of the force of the attack.

Tayoken, multi-form and Kikoho, three technics, aside from the Kikoho, they were all pretty useless. Gotenks created two technics that could have given him the victory against a foe with ridiculous regenerative abilities if he had used them properly. You honestly think Tienshinhan's Kikoho would kill Majin Buu if they had equal PL's? It's all about putting ridiculous power into different entities with a mind of their own that can think, plan tactics, act etc. Tienshinhan ever did something even close to that? I seriously doubt. Also, the Gotenks exemple wasn't to prove who creates the better technics. You guys had an excuse the Kamehameha was created at the beginning of the series and the Kikoho was created much later by a much more masterful Tienshinhan, so that's why it was 50x more powerful. Gotenks technics were created in volume 41 at the end of the series and they're still extremely and I mean extremely far from having a 150x multiplier. Tienshinhan is that good huh? Even better than the fusions of two young saiyans who could do pretty much whatever they wanted with their Ki.

Alright, my bad then. If I punch someone it'll be less impressive than if someone stronger than me does it because I have less mastery of the technic. You're digging yourself in a hole now, a punch has nothing to do with a multiplier, it's just a basic physical attack.

It seems you misunderstand, I didn't say the Kikoho didn't multiply the power, I said there wasn't a multiplier. Assuming there is a multiplier is assuming it is the same for everyone and it isn't the case. Everyone believes the SSJ has a multiplier because they believe it'll multiply everyone's power by the same amount of time regardless of PL's. Tienshinhan can decide to fire a Kikoho 2x stronger than himself, just like he can decide to fire one 1.2x stronger than himself, Goku can't decide of the SSJ multiplier, it is set in stone and regardless of the consequences, his power will multiply by the same amount of time everytime he does it. The Kikoho multiplies the power but it doesn't mean there is A multiplier. It can be different for everyone. Understand or??

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the predator

Oh I see where you're coming from Majuub, there are some little things I don't agree with but I agree with your main point, I can't be bothered to fret over the little things because it would make the topic go way out of proportion. But I agree with you on your main point where you say it doesn't have a multiplier but it still multiplies. We're only not agreeing over definition:

the thing you call a 'multiplier' I call it a 'set multiplier' (means it doesn't change and it cannot be controlled) while the 'multiplier' is attacks such as kienzan, megakamehameha, kikoho whatever.

And Tien wasn't the one who invented Kikoho it was Mutaito I think because Roshi clearly states it was forbidden to teach that technique. Also, it is why Roshi knew that the kamehameha is dog piss compared to the kikoho. (Leads me to believe that Roshi knows the kikoho)

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Dupe of USSJed

If you think its plausible that the Kaioken was involved in the creation of the attack...

Neo-Kikoho=2.5x multiplier, x20 from the Kaioken, end result is x50

Or more realistically, 5x multiplier, x10 from the Kaioken, end result is x50

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Majuub

Where is the evidence to suggest Tienshinhan knows the Kaioken. I never said Tienshinhan couldn't create more powerful attacks than Goku. Having an attack 2-3x stronger is something, I would even accept 10x. Do you guys have any idea of how ridiculous is 50x? if Chou Gohan was capable of something even close to that, pretty much any form of Buu would have been nothing to him, if Gotenks ghosts(arguably his strongest attack) were around 50x more powerful than a Kamehameha, Shin Buu would have been dispatched with the first ghost. Goku was confident he could anihiliate Chibi Buu with a full power Kamehameha, imagine what he would have done if he had an attack 50x more powerful? Another exemple? Vegeta's Final Explosion, it completely failed to kill Fat Buu, it was probably the most powerful technic in proportion to an individual's power we've seen in the series. He released so much of his Ki that it killed him. Tienshinhan would eventually die if he uses the Kikoho too much, even there, he wouldn't have time to use all his energy, he would fall unconscious before. The Final Explosion was very very far from 50x(Unless you guys are implying that, by getting angry, Fat Buu increased his power by 200x) we all know:

Final Explosion>>>>>>Any possible attacks

If Tienshinhan had done a Final Explosion, it would probably be strong enough to kill someone of 50% Frieza's power, if Goku had done it, it would have probably be strong enough to severly damage if not kill Chibi Buu, if Vegeto used it...well, God have mercy for the universe. That attack is the most powerful technic in the series(In comparison to the user's power) and yet you guys have the Kikoho like 10x stronger?

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Dupe of USSJed

Simple, it was an explosion. Buu got blown into dust. It didn't 'erase' his ki, it just blew his pink ass up.

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Majuub

I fail to see the relevance of this explantion. If the Final Explosion was 50x more powerful than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, then Majin Buu would have died, plain and simple.

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Dupe of USSJed

He would have been blown into dust, which he was.

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Majuub

Majin Buu can be blown away by pretty much anything, his body will look damage but it won't be. They stated a full power Kamehameha was enough to obliterate Chibi Buu(who has a stamina much more impressive than Fat Buu). In the beginning of DBZ, a full power Kamehameha for Goku was about the double of his PL as read by the scouter. In the end, as an SSJ3, I wouldn't doubt the Kamehameha could be 10-20x stronger than his PL if it was read by a scouter. A full power Kamehameha from Goku would still be nothing to a Final Explosion from Goku. If the Kikoho is indeed 150x, then Majin Buu should have been killed by an attack stronger than this because it would have engulfed him in an offensive Ki that was meant to harm him. Gotenks stated that he was about to erase Shin Buu's Ki by obliterating him, if the Final Explosion was 150x, Majin Buu should have been completely erased.

If the Kikoho is a 150x multiplier, then the Final Explosion surely can be a 200x multiplier. With that kind of power, Vegeta would have erased anything.

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Evil Vegeta

I think Vegeta's final explosion is no more then 10x at the most, nowhere near 50x or more.

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Majuub

Well, according to the Tienshinhan supporters, Kikoho has a 184x multiplier, which makes Majin Vegeta's Final Explosion ''Dog piss'' compared to the Kikoho.

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Dupe of USSJed