Evil Vegeta

Yes there is. If Kaioshin could hold down SSJ2 Gohan, but still be such a coward when it comes to enemies like Pui-Pui, who he would be able to restrict with his magic, then it's a plot device.

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Zer0

Shin Kikoho = Plotkai / Plota-jin / Plothameha (aka Plot no Jutsu, Plotkai, Plot Fruit etc)

Plotkai / Plota-jin / Plothameha = Plot Device

Plot Device = It will be however strong enough Toriyama needs it to be in order to advance the plot.

Dupe of USSJed

Plot Device= In universe possibility. I won't deny it may be as you say, a plot device, but in writing this into the story Toriyama makes it a canon possibility in the DBZ universe.

And btw, how do we know the Kaioshin paralysis thing will even work on Majin henchmen?

So yeah, with that reasoning everything is a plot device, meaning theres no need for DBZ discussions at all, I don't even see the point of making a DBZ forum if everything is just a plot device.

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Evil Vegeta

There's nothin in the manga that suggests Kaioshins magic wouldn't work, so there's no reason to assume it wouldn't. I also don't use the plot device argument as much, but if you actually think Tien increased his power 500x or 10,000x through one attack, then more power to you.

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Dupe of USSJed

Actually, I have the increase at x150.

And with some additional speculation, I have gotten it to 116x(Tien 1.5, Cell 180) and even as low as 87.5x(Tien 2, Cell 180). I also got it to x50 at some point, but I can't find the post and the logic I used to come to that number. x500 is Hero's number, not mine.

Edit: Found it, the x50 is actually from Hero saying Tien would need to get x50 stronger with the Kikoho if Cell was 500,000,000. By that logic, a PL:10,000,000 Tien would only need to get x17 stronger to have the affect he had on Cell using my powerlevel list.

And EV, do you think its highly illogical for a 'mere attack' to have a 50x multiplier?

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the predator

Jed- You are repped for this :
USSJed's Serious PL List


I was never too good at making PLs so I never tried but when I tried to do it in my mind it was more or less a replica of that one. Makes perfect sense you don't mind if I start using that as reference from now on do you? (actually its a little too late to ask for permission hehe sorry)

Also to prove that list is somewhat plausible how can android 16 hold perfect cell is an arm lock if perfect cell's strength is that much more than android 16. Don't say he caught him off-guard because android 16 spent a great deal of time blabbing about what he was going to do, perfectly enough time for Cell to release himself.

The list says:
Android 16
155,000,000
500,000,000

So its not highly inconceivable that #16 holds Cell for a small duration of time ESPECIALLY if the lion's share of his PL is his strength.

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Majuub

Point is, you have just one very inconsistent exemple to prove the Kikoho's power. If at least Tien had used the Neo Kikoho a couple of times, then we could at least debate its power. He rarely use it, the only exemple we have is the one against Cell. Even if the multiplier was 150x(which is completely ridiculous and there isn't even a multiplier) Tienshinhan would have to be awfuly powerful in order for it to phase Cell.

Also, we both know the Kamehameha has a ''multiplier'' much much much lower than 150x, 4x seems about the maximum we can give it. SSJ Gotenks stated the Super Ghost Kamikze attack was his ultimate or at least one of his ultimate technic, it completely failed to kill Shin Buu. Now, if you have the Kikoho at 150x, an attack from Gotenks(Who controls Ki better than pretty much anyone) should have a higher multiplier, or at least something close. Fact is, I doubt the multiplier was anywhere close to 10x. Having the Kikoho at 150x(3x more powerful than the highest possible SSJ multiplier) is impossibility at its fullest.

The Kikoho is just like the Kienzan, it works completely differently, it can kill a foe even if the launcher of the attack is 2x stronger. Tienshinhan was there to hold back Cell, he did it once and it was to further the plot, that in itself is a plot device. Zenkais are a plot device, Kaioken 20x is a plot device. They are just extremely powerful things that are left unexplained, they are there just to further the plot.

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Deep Thought

I like how Dragon Ball didn't just make up powerful attacks and shit on the spot, just so the hero can win.

Anyway, saying that Tien is stronger than the former strongest person in the universe and the Legendary Super Sayajin, Goku, is just wrong, especially since the humans in Dragon Ball were implied to not even be a warrior race, like the Sayajins.

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deckzone3000

I have non-powered up Cell(17 absorbed) around 10,000x stronger than Tien in the cell saga.
An attack that's 10,000x stronger than the user is ridiculous sounding, but for whatever reason it was, that's what it was at that moment.

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Majuub

You do realize that even if Tienshinhan is a mere 50,000 by then, it puts Cell at 500,000,000? I don't think the characters are already that strong by then.

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the predator

1. He used it again to stop shin buu's attack on Gohan

2. The kamehameha is shit compared to the kikoho I don't know how bad it is compared to the much refined shin kikoho. Its like comparing Oozaru to SSJ3

3. Super Ghost Kamikaze attack is an attack deviced by a fused child. His excellent ki control is what made the attack half-decent

4. Apparently not

5. That's true, in this case its the kienzan's sharpness that provides the multiplier while in the case of the kikoho its the 'life' energy. Its still a multiplier anyway.





My sentiments exactly. I agree with you 100% Its total bull to think Tienshinhan was ever in the same league with 100% Frieza and SSJ Goku

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Vicdmx

Tien(End of Z) is NO where near SSJ power, I would put him at 5,000,000 at best.

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deckzone3000

I have Cell at around 800,000,000 and my numbers are usually lower than everyone else's...

You don't have SSJ Goku(frieza saga) at 15,000,000 do you? lol

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Hero

Plot Devices don't exist gaiz.

KiKoHo is just really fucking illogical and strong.

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Top 5 Manga:

1. Dragon Ball
2. One Piece
3. Hunter x Hunter
4. Vagabond
5. Hikaru No Go

Dragon Ball/Z Power Levels

SkullRock

I have the Ki-ho-ko multiplied by about 3,000x.