the predator

Hi! Many people like to assume that Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Trunks/Goten are beyond Frieza 100% in their base level at the end of DBZ. If there's any DIRECT proof from the manga: the first person to provide it will be repped.

But if there isn't then please tell me what you base your assumptions on?

BurningVegeta

Time to get this ball rolling! That’s illogical to think of such; as there really is no such state that has a base power level. As I mean Mirai Trunks for instance, when he first confronted Freiza his power level in his Base state was 5! Even before then Son Goku’s power level whilst being suppressed in his Base State was 5,000 in the Saiyan Arc (pre battle with Nappa).

It isn’t stated anywhere from what I’m reading that the Base state has a level pinnacle; were below it the power level becomes suppressed and any higher the Base power level then becomes raised.

Anyway when Son Goku is battling a newly awakened Uub during the last tournament of Dragonball Z. Do you not think Son Goku didn’t push his power level above 1,000,000 (one million) remember he was fighting the recantation of Chibi Buu.

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Remixxx

In the buu saga all of the things poiting at Goku,Gohan and Vegeta at having a large base power was contradicted.....Like the Dabura quote .....

When it comes to Goku at the End of Z we have to remember that Uub didnt have all of his potential awekened just a bit when Goku made him angry.....So thats why Goku wanted to take him away and to train with him

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BurningVegeta

How strong would you say Uub was then? I believe they both were pushing if not close to one million. I mean hopw else would Vegeta recongise Uub's power level.

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Remixxx

When not angry then Uub is not very strong but angry he is god damn strong probaly around the higher millions

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BurningVegeta

Yeah I get that. Moving on can you recognise a level of where thats the Base state, excatly? There isn't one to me it can vary from 5 to maybe 1,000,000 (one million) depending on the individuals circumstances.

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Evil Vegeta

I don't understand why many assume the enemies are that much weaker by the Buu saga. By the way, who says they only reached 100 million in the Buu saga? That could've been back in the Cell Games for all we know, and while many think it's illogical to consider the jump in power in base, it's really not.

When they train, they aren't just training to increase one portion of their level of power, they train to increase everything, and sayin otherwise makes no sense. They stopped using their bases because they had to use SSJ or above, but after seven years of endless training, Vegeta & Goku are very powerful in their base forms, and Gohan is likely on that level already due to his SSJ2 power, while the others had to reach SSJ2 through training.

If people think Pui-Pui is only in the 1,000 power range, fine, that's an understandable notion; but why people always think Yakon is weak is beyond me. Kaioshin was right about fearing Dabura's power, but he's now he's incorrect about the other two minions in power? That makes no sense. Forget Dabura's quote, that has no influence on the base Saiyans in power. Even if you don't think Dabura's quote matters, Piccolo didn't exactly do anything to be considered strong, nor are we told he trained, so he could be weaker then the base Saiyans for all we know.

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the predator

So no proof huh? That sucks.

Anyways I'll answer EV since he's the one that is (the most) in favor that Goku/Vegeta were in the 100 millions.

I don't believe they're anywhere near as close as 100 million. Because when they train, they nearly always train to take their current SSJ form to the next level and while most of you think its a piece of cake, I believe it eats up a lot of time. Think about it: Vegeta trained for 7 years just to attain SSJ2, he couldn't go further. He might've trained in his base form but really: to jump from the lower millions to a hundred million is absurd! Just because they have a new form after the frieza saga (SSJ), doesn't mean that its easier for their base forms to attain power. And since they didn't dedicate their whole time to their base form I'd say its at around:

25,000,000 for Goku (from 300,000 in the Frieza saga that's still a pretty big jump)

and

30,000,000 for Vegeta (I believe Vegeta thought that SSJ2 was the full potential of SSJ so afterwards he trained his base form, hence I give him a better base form than Goku)

Gohan's Chou form means that he's at full power while in base but his full base power as an adult before his power were awakened I'd say:

10,000,000 and 15,000,000 for Kid Gohan post-RoSaT

Goten is at 2,500,000 and Trunks at 2,700,000.

Obviously I'm making numbers up out of the top of my head lol

As for Pui Pui, Yes I do think he's weak. He was making too much of a big deal about 10 times normal gravity. I believe his Majin power-up made him stronger but I can only put him at around Captain Ginyu's power at most (MAYBE Frieza first form).

Yakon, on the other hand I think he's much stronger than that. But remember Goku fought him with SSJ not with his base form. (okay so there was a small fraction of the fight done with Goku's base form but its not like Yakon was that much superior to Goku, I'd put him at 85,000,000, yes I do believe Frieza would kick his ass, since Frieza was the universe's tyrant. Seriously people underestimate his power too much)

Remixxx

Vegeta said that his base form maxed out but again he contradicted himself when he was showed training in his base for the Budokai...

The simpel answer for Goku,Vegeta and Gohan is choose whatever you want since there is no wrong answer

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Darkprince410

As I've pointed out in the past, gravity level by itself doesn't determine a character's battle power. Just because Pui Pui made a big deal about the 10 fold gravity level of his home planet doesn't mean that his power range should be low, as a character, no matter how strong he is, will be hindered by a gravity level higher than what they're accustomed to, no matter what.

If Bejiita hadn't have been accustomed to the 10g of Pui Pui's planet (not only because of his growing up on wakusei Bejiita, but also due to his post Furiiza saga gravity training), he would have been encumbered to some degree by the level of gravity.

What people also fail to see is that Pui Pui didn't act like 10g was a lot for him, but that he thought that 10g would be a lot for Bejiita and the others, as he had no idea that they had gravity training experience in the past. So for all we know, Pui Pui could have been stronger than 100% True Form Furiiza, which would support why the East Kaioushin-sama was scared of him.

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Zer0

One of the best posts I have ever seen made here.


Anyways, as DP410 said, the gravity issue doesn't work like that. Unless you place base kid Trunks under Freeza's weakest suppression or base Gohan, Cyborg Arc, even worse...

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the predator

I get your point. Gohan also struggled with a higher amount of gravity when in RoSaT, but that's not the matter at hand here.

Pui Pui underestimated his enemies after his ass was kicked at normal gravity. Then he was cocky because of the 10x normal gravity. It just shows what kind of enemies Pui Pui battles and what little battle experience he's got.

You're right he might as well be stronger than 100% Frieza but I think its very unlikely. Even his personality seems to reveal that he's not used to having power while Yakon and Dabura do.

Also East Kaioshin, I believe was scared because of Babidi's effect on Pui Pui. He didn't want to put anything to risk, firstly he estimated the saiya-jin's power to be average so to the average saiya-jin Pui Pui would be a handful, also: Kaioshin witnessed what the majin power-up did to Spopovich therefore he was scared about what Pui Pui or anybody else for that matter; might be able to do. So Pui Pui was unpredictable while under Babidi's control and that I think is why the supreme Kai was so scared of him.

I know the kaioshin witnessed the SSJ transformation of Gohan so he knew that these weren't average saiyans etc but I think he also underestimated the SSJ transformation and thought that Babidi held greater power in his magic.

All a guess though, we can't really know for sure but I'd like to hear opinions.

Remixxx

That never happend in the Manga ....he never struggled when he entered the Rosat for the first time,he just said that his body feels heavier and kept on walking like its nothin.

I agree with you about Pui...it just looked like the 10x is something big for him or that it would give him the advantage that kinda indicates that he really is not strong at all.

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LegendarySSJ7

There's no one statement that states anything of this sort because Toriyama did not calculate things as such; there's no right or wrong answer because it's left so vague (what with the Super Saiyan forms being used as more superlative plot devices than meticulous increases, and the auto evolution augmentations themselves becoming more and more a grey area and less explored with the advent of the Super Saiyan forms). To me, the multiplier is reduced because as Son Goku and the other remaining Saiyans sought to get rid of the restlessness of the form while still not stifling progression (the eventaulity of the resulting mastery), the gap between the base and Super Saiyan forms was bridged. Does this mean that it's inconfutable that the base Saiyan battle powers were over 100 million by the Boo Saga Arc or the end of DBZ itself? No, this is the opinion I'm of.

Again, it's a matter of opinion.

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SSJ4 Vegito

Well I don't have 100% irefutable proof but I do have something. Yakon's Kiri level was 800 killas, and SSJ Goku's was 3,000 and Yakon was on-par with Base Goku. Also Supreme Kai didn't think too much of Freeza. He did think something of PuiPui though. Now he can sense PLs proved in Volume 24 when he sensed SSJ3 Goku's Chi from the planet and when he sensed Gohan's SSJ2 Power. Now yes, he might not have known Base Vegeta's strength but the scouters on planet namek didn't know Goku's Power, Piccolo also explains to Dr. Gero that they can amplify their Ki for a burst. Kaioshin when he saw Vegeta beat PuiPui he simply said he never thought they would be that strong, not "Oh, that guy was weak". This also fits with the Kiri stuff