Tien is under a million.

Hero · 09-05-2008

Alright kiddies, today I will be discussing why Tien is not as high as many of you seem to think, and that his power level is actually under 1,000,000. Many of you may disagree with me at first, but over time hopefully you will learn to accept the fact that your favorite men of Dragon Ball are nothing but weak ass humans. Why you assume that they have to be on par with Super Saiyans, simply because of the fact they were in the same show as them, without any proof what so ever, really baffles me. Now, this thread will focus mainly on Tien, but Krillin and Yamcha are also obviously under 1,000,000, and do follow the same principals.

First, we will start with countering the most common arguments used by fanboys of the humans. The ones that relate specifically to Tien include:
1.He must be in the millions to have a reasonable Ki Ko Ho multiplier.
2.Piccolo gained 5x his power level by self training, this is undeniable proof that Tien got exactly the same increase.
3.Tien said he wanted harder training, obviously this means he was 90,000 after King Kai’s training.
4.Tien trains serious…therefore he manages to reach one million.
5.Tien gained more at Kami’s, therefore he gets more out of training than Goku.

1: He must be in the millions eh? Bullshit. Obviously he was weaker than the Base Saiyans for obvious reasons, so this automatically puts him below what? 9,000,000 or so? Keep in mind this is ignoring any and all logic concerning his training increases. So…Semi Perfect Cell is generally agreed to be around a billion or so when suppressed. That’s a multiplier of 111x. You really think that that’s reasonable? Nonsense. Not even a Saiyan transformation at this point could get you that, some mere attack is not going to have this much power. 111x is just as ridiculous as 10,000x. Even if we were to drop Semi Cell down to 500,000,000 it would still yield around a 50x increase. Tien’s no Super Saiyan, so I don’t see why that’s logical. If you could gain that much power through attacks, what’s the point of transforming? The idea of a multiplier for the KiKoHo is a plothole in itself, and should not try to be rationalized, or even used as proof of Tien’s power. He would have to be at around 100 million at the very least for this to make the slightest bit of sense.

2: This one is easy to disprove. First of all, Piccolo was not self training. He trained with Gohan for 6 months. Gohan has been shown to increase his power when in harm’s way(shown when Piccolo through him against the cliff) or if Piccolo ever pissed him off. He would likely provide a great workout for Piccolo, and he would be much more accustomed to fighting after his 6 months of wilderness. So no, this is not self training evidence. Not even close.

3: A lot of you guys are so focused on the fact that ‘King Kai said he would train them harder.’ When in reality, this never happened. All he stated was that they wanted harder training than Goku. This does not mean in the slightest that they will automatically have double his training effectiveness. The other thing that pisses me off about this is that you assume every single fucking training runs on a multiplier. When Goku was ‘over 8,000’ King Kai stated that he had surpassed him in every way except comedy. Logically, the humans would top out at this as well. Of course, we do have to take into account that Yamcha was there for much of the time, so he would indeed increase the effectiveness of the training for Tien and Chaozu. Chaozu was too weak to count as a sparring partner for reasons I have discussed in another thread(I will quote the post if you want). So this may indeed double the effectiveness. But still, this would only merit power levels of around 20k or so. Nothing drastic like this 90k bullshit you guys come up with.

4: This isn’t really an argument. Everyone in Dragon Ball trained seriously(with the exception of Yajirobe) so this doesn’ t merit a higher increase .

5: Another easy one to disprove. You forget that when Goku went to Kami’s to train, he had no one to partner train with. Once he surpassed Mr. Popo(which he could’ve done in like a week for all we know) he really had no one else to help he get any further. Tien had Yamcha, Chaozu(to an extent..), and Krillin who were constantly gaining power right along with him. They could continually spar evenly with each other. Yamcha and Krillin were surpassed, but this is just most likely due to the fact that Tien started higher.

Now for the fun part. Proving what Tien’s power level really was.

So we first start out with Tien at a power level of around 142. He had a slight advantage over Roshi(139), so that’s why I placed him there. After this he trains ‘hard/seriously/whatever’ for 3 years with Korin and gains about 1.5x his power level. How do I know? Well he couldn’t have reached 250 just yet, assuming that he did train in the 5 year gap. I think most people like to put him around 220. So that’s a 1.51x increase. Which is around 1.16x a year. Yes, not some random whole number like you seem to think, just 1.16x. And this could potentially be partner training with Yamcha and Krillin. For the sake of the argument we’ll assume he wasn’t. We can also assume that he surpassed Korin’s training regimen pretty quickly as well.
It has also been shown that the stronger you get, the harder it is to improve. Take Krillin for example. He gained around 2-3x his strength while training at Master Roshi’s the first time. Yet the second time he does, this time for three years, he barely gets even a 2x increase at most.
So, why do you think that in the Android saga, when Tien is in the thousands to start with, he gains 5x a year? Ridiculous to say the least. Some people do say that he incorporated King Kai’s style into his own, which would increase the effectiveness of his training. I don’t understand that though. The stuff King Kai taught them was most likely just workouts for power levels that aren’t even at 10,000 yet, so I doubt they would help someone who, by your logic, had reached a million. I agree that they would boost his training to an extent. Maybe a bit higher than 1.5x a year if you want to go by multipliers, but certainly not this 5x bullshit that some of you come up with.

Now, as you can hopefully see. Tien has no hope of every lasting even a second against a SSJ in battle, or even brushing the one million mark. Just because the Saiyans became overpowered doesn’t mean that you have to do the same for the humans. They were basically useless in fights after the Ginyu saga, so they have no reason really to be as high as you place them, other than to satisfy your fanboyism.

Dupe of USSJed · 09-05-2008

Its long, but seriously this is a very weak argument.

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1: He must be in the millions eh? Bullshit. Obviously he was weaker than the Base Saiyans for obvious reasons, so this automatically puts him below what? 9,000,000 or so? Keep in mind this is ignoring any and all logic concerning his training increases. So…Semi Perfect Cell is generally agreed to be around a billion or so when suppressed. That’s a multiplier of 111x. You really think that that’s reasonable? Nonsense. Not even a Saiyan transformation at this point could get you that, some mere attack is not going to have this much power. 111x is just as ridiculous as 10,000x. Even if we were to drop Semi Cell down to 500,000,000 it would still yield around a 50x increase. Tien’s no Super Saiyan, so I don’t see why that’s logical. If you could gain that much power through attacks, what’s the point of transforming? The idea of a multiplier for the KiKoHo is a plothole in itself, and should not try to be rationalized, or even used as proof of Tien’s power. He would have to be at around 100 million at the very least for this to make the slightest bit of sense.

What is so unbelievable for the strongest attack in dbz to give the same multiplier as Super Saiyan? Especially if its for one attack. x50 is nowhere near as utterly ridiculous as x10,000.

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2:

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This one is easy to disprove. First of all, Piccolo was not self training. He trained with Gohan for 6 months. Gohan has been shown to increase his power when in harm’s way(shown when Piccolo through him against the cliff) or if Piccolo ever pissed him off. He would likely provide a great workout for Piccolo, and he would be much more accustomed to fighting after his 6 months of wilderness. So no, this is not self training evidence. Not even close.

Now I can't speak for the other Tien Power Level arguers, but I have never stated that Piccolo is 'self training'. Its widely known that its 50-50 self training and training someone weaker than him. You yourself seem to have made this argument up just to make it seem like you have proved a point.

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3.A lot of you guys are so focused on the fact that ‘King Kai said he would train them harder.’ When in reality, this never happened. All he stated was that they wanted harder training than Goku. This does not mean in the slightest that they will automatically have double his training effectiveness. The other thing that pisses me off about this is that you assume every single fucking training runs on a multiplier. When Goku was ‘over 8,000’ King Kai stated that he had surpassed him in every way except comedy. Logically, the humans would top out at this as well. Of course, we do have to take into account that Yamcha was there for much of the time, so he would indeed increase the effectiveness of the training for Tien and Chaozu. Chaozu was too weak to count as a sparring partner for reasons I have discussed in another thread(I will quote the post if you want). So this may indeed double the effectiveness. But still, this would only merit power levels of around 20k or so. Nothing drastic like this 90k bullshit you guys come up with.

I agree with this. In fact, I have Tien at around 25,000 post King Kai's.

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4. This isn’t really an argument. Everyone in Dragon Ball trained seriously(with the exception of Yajirobe) so this doesn’ t merit a higher increase .

Lol, either you made this up or theres some stupid fanboys out there. The best someone could hope for from the 'serious' argument is that Tien kept up his training for longer, and perhaps trained better than lazy characters like Yamcha.

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5. Another easy one to disprove. You forget that when Goku went to Kami’s to train, he had no one to partner train with. Once he surpassed Mr. Popo(which he could’ve done in like a week for all we know) he really had no one else to help he get any further. Tien had Yamcha, Chaozu(to an extent..), and Krillin who were constantly gaining power right along with him. They could continually spar evenly with each other. Yamcha and Krillin were surpassed, but this is just most likely due to the fact that Tien started higher.

No real comment here, as I don't consider the Kami training so much. One thing I will add, is how do you know that Popo did not increase in power along with Goku?

Now its time for the fun part

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So we first start out with Tien at a power level of around 142. He had a slight advantage over Roshi(139), so that’s why I placed him there. After this he trains ‘hard/seriously/whatever’ for 3 years with Korin and gains about 1.5x his power level. How do I know? Well he couldn’t have reached 250 just yet, assuming that he did train in the 5 year gap. I think most people like to put him around 220. So that’s a 1.51x increase. Which is around 1.16x a year. Yes, not some random whole number like you seem to think, just 1.16x. And this could potentially be partner training with Yamcha and Krillin. For the sake of the argument we’ll assume he wasn’t. We can also assume that he surpassed Korin’s training regimen pretty quickly as well.

If thats a Dragon Ball PL then no comment. If you are suggesting Tien is 220 and not 250 at the start of Z the manga begs to differ.

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It has also been shown that the stronger you get, the harder it is to improve. Take Krillin for example. He gained around 2-3x his strength while training at Master Roshi’s the first time. Yet the second time he does, this time for three years, he barely gets even a 2x increase at most.
So, why do you think that in the Android saga, when Tien is in the thousands to start with, he gains 5x a year? Ridiculous to say the least. Some people do say that he incorporated King Kai’s style into his own, which would increase the effectiveness of his training. I don’t understand that though. The stuff King Kai taught them was most likely just workouts for power levels that aren’t even at 10,000 yet, so I doubt they would help someone who, by your logic, had reached a million. I agree that they would boost his training to an extent. Maybe a bit higher than 1.5x a year if you want to go by multipliers, but certainly not this 5x bullshit that some of you come up with.

Ok, your taking the 'higher power-harder gain' thing out of proportion. Just think, Vegeta and Goku surpassed Piccolo and #18 by the Buu Saga with just their base levels. That means they went from perhaps 10,000,000-30,000,000 to fucking 250,000,000-400,000,000

As for the King Kai's training sucks argument...

Theory
'The High Heels training Argument'

Lets say you are a runner, and of course you train by running. Lets also say this is DBZ not real life, so theres really no limit to your speed. You can currently run at 10kmph, and through your regular running training you increase that by about 10% per year. So after 3 years you are running at 13.31kmph.

However, you then meet a mysterious running master on one of your travels, and he teaches you the sacred training arts. It turns out, that training in High Heels is much more effective than regular running he says as he runs circles around you. So you head on home, and train in high heels. Suddenly you find yourself increasing 5x faster than before! After a year, your already at 19.965kmph! So which are you going to take, regular running or this 'High Heels Training'? Same applies to the various ancient training methods employed by Roshi, Kami, King Kai and any other Masters I have forgotten to mention.

Fact
And on top of that, King Kai trained Goku for 7 years after the Cell Games, causing him to unlock SSJ2, SSJ3, and increase his base power massively, over 30x by your '10,000,000' levels.

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Now, as you can hopefully see. Tien has no hope of every lasting even a second against a SSJ in battle, or even brushing the one million mark. Just because the Saiyans became overpowered doesn’t mean that you have to do the same for the humans. They were basically useless in fights after the Ginyu saga, so they have no reason really to be as high as you place them, other than to satisfy your fanboyism.

You have no better chance of proving Tien to be weak as shit as I do of proving he is definitely 1,000,000+

SSJ4 Vegito · 09-05-2008

I'm not sure where to place the humans anymore. It's a pretty good analysis, I do think that Tien's training was increased as well since he simply has to push his limit and do that training exercise better.
As for the Ki-Ko-ho thing I agree isn't proof that Tien is strong but I would say that it simply has a special purpose kind of like the Kienzan has no Multiplication factor it just cuts through stuff. Kind of like a knife, if your stabbed in the chest with a knife even if your strong you will get hurt since the sharp edge simply tears through your flesh. I'm not saying it has the same purpose as the Kienzan but prehaps it just vaporizes stuff. Like at the 22nd Budokai. Tien's blast only seemed to blind the spectators not blow them away like an explosion would at that close range.

Hero · 09-05-2008

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Originally Posted by USSJed

What is so unbelievable for the strongest attack in dbz to give the same multiplier as Super Saiyan? Especially if its for one attack. x50 is nowhere near as utterly ridiculous as x10,000.

50x is with the most illogical training increases, and with Semi Cell set on the very minimum. And yes, it is very ridiculous.

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Now I can't speak for the other Tien Power Level arguers, but I have never stated that Piccolo is 'self training'. Its widely known that its 50-50 self training and training someone weaker than him. You yourself seem to have made this argument up just to make it seem like you have proved a point.

lolwut? Isn't it you who everytime trys to use this as evidence to Tien's gains in the Android Saga?

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No real comment here, as I don't consider the Kami training so much. One thing I will add, is how do you know that Popo did not increase in power along with Goku?

Because then Popo would be stronger than Kami, and then Kami probably would've sent him instead of himself to the 23rd Budokai.

Plus we have no idea if he even had the ability to increase his power. He's a mysterious little fucker.

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If thats a Dragon Ball PL then no comment. If you are suggesting Tien is 220 and not 250 at the start of Z the manga begs to differ.

Dragon Ball pl obviously...

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Ok, your taking the 'higher power-harder gain' thing out of proportion. Just think, Vegeta and Goku surpassed Piccolo and #18 by the Buu Saga with just their base levels. That means they went from perhaps 10,000,000-30,000,000 to fucking 250,000,000-400,000,000

Ok, Goku trained with the fucking gods, with 10 fucking ton weights on him(and probably more), and Vegeta could train in up to 500x earth's normal gravity. I highly doubt Tien had access to Bulma's ~~panties~~ Gravity Machine.

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As for the King Kai's training sucks argument...

Theory
'The High Heels training Argument'

Lets say you are a runner, and of course you train by running. Lets also say this is DBZ not real life, so theres really no limit to your speed. You can currently run at 10kmph, and through your regular running training you increase that by about 10% per year. So after 3 years you are running at 13.31kmph.

However, you then meet a mysterious running master on one of your travels, and he teaches you the sacred training arts. It turns out, that training in High Heels is much more effective than regular running he says as he runs circles around you. So you head on home, and train in high heels. Suddenly you find yourself increasing 5x faster than before! After a year, your already at 19.965kmph! So which are you going to take, regular running or this 'High Heels Training'? Same applies to the various ancient training methods employed by Roshi, Kami, King Kai and any other Masters I have forgotten to mention.

Which is why I said that Tien was getting just above a 1.5x increase each time, as opposed to less than 1.16x times like he should've. =/

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Fact

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And on top of that, King Kai trained Goku for 7 years after the Cell Games, causing him to unlock SSJ2, SSJ3, and increase his base power massively, over 30x by your '10,000,000' levels.

You forgot to mention that Tien doesn't have access to 10 Ton weights on earth.

Dupe of USSJed · 09-05-2008

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You forgot to mention that Tien doesn't have access to 10 Ton weights on earth.

I don't care about that. Point is that your idea that the Z Team maxed out at 20,000 is flat out wrong.

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Which is why I said that Tien was getting just above a 1.5x increase each time, as opposed to less than 1.16x times like he should've. =/

Fair enough, but I can also decide that he increases by 3x or 2x instead. Thus another argument of yours squashed.

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Ok, Goku trained with the fucking gods, with 10 fucking ton weights on him(and probably more), and Vegeta could train in up to 500x earth's normal gravity. I highly doubt Tien had access to Bulma's panties Gravity Machine.

Lol, so Vegeta training at x300=10,000,000 tops. Whilst Vegeta training at x500=250,000,000+?

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Because then Popo would be stronger than Kami, and then Kami probably would've sent him instead of himself to the 23rd Budokai.

Plus we have no idea if he even had the ability to increase his power. He's a mysterious little fucker.

Is Popo able to do the Mafuba?

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lolwut? Isn't it you who everytime trys to use this as evidence to Tien's gains in the Android Saga?

Yes, and I don't claim Piccolo to be entirely self training.

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50x is with the most illogical training increases, and with Semi Cell set on the very minimum. And yes, it is very ridiculous.

And so is 10,000x actually 200x more ridiculous? You may think a human getting a SSJ like increase for single uber attacks to be ridiculous, but I don't. Its been shown throughout the series that the Saiyans can multiply their power many, many, manyfold, and so in comparison to say 'x300' for SSJ3 I find x50 for Kikoho to be very reasonable indeed.

Also...
I demand that any points proven right by either side need to be admitted to, not just not mentioned, so that we can get some fucking answers. Most people just stop mentioning points they have been proven wrong on, and so no real answer is established.

EG, if Popo is proven to be Mafuba Capable(I have no idea if he can) then I will admit you are right about that.

Hero · 09-05-2008

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Originally Posted by USSJed

I don't care about that. Point is that your idea that the Z Team maxed out at 20,000 is flat out wrong.

Please quote where I said that.

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Fair enough, but I can also decide that he increases by 3x or 2x instead. Thus another argument of yours squashed.

If it was that drastic, don't you think that he would've mentioned something about his training skills being increased or something.

Plus I got more evidence. Yamcha was stated to be weaker than Krillin, yet Krillin never went to King Kai's. So obviously just incorporating someone's style into your own doesn't increase your training effectivness by that much more.

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Lol, so Vegeta training at x300=10,000,000 tops. Whilst Vegeta training at x500=250,000,000+?

It was just an example number. I'm sure Bulma or Briefs could increase the levels it could go up to.

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Is Popo able to do the Mafuba?

If Tien could learn in like a day, I'm sure Kami could've taught it to Popo.

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Yes, and I don't claim Piccolo to be entirely self training.

So...what I'm saying is, don't use it as a basis for Tien's increases.

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And so is 10,000x actually 200x more ridiculous? You may think a human getting a SSJ like increase for single uber attacks to be ridiculous, but I don't. Its been shown throughout the series that the Saiyans can multiply their power many, many, manyfold, and so in comparison to say 'x300' for SSJ3 I find x50 for Kikoho to be very reasonable indeed.

The Super Saiyan is a legendary warrior. No mere attack should logically be able to get to heights of its power.

And did I ever deny that 10,000x is ridiculous? No. Look, its just obvious that the KiKoHo doesn't work like other ki attacks, and cannot be used as evidence.

Plus, he manages to stop one of Gotenks Buu's attacks later on. He would have to get what? Like 500x stronger in 7 years?

Bullshit.

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Also...

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I demand that any points proven right by either side need to be admitted to, not just not mentioned, so that we can get some fucking answers. Most people just stop mentioning points they have been proven wrong on, and so no real answer is established.

Alright, fair enough.

Dupe of USSJed · 09-05-2008

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Please quote where I said that.

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A lot of you guys are so focused on the fact that ‘King Kai said he would train them harder.’ When in reality, this never happened. All he stated was that they wanted harder training than Goku. This does not mean in the slightest that they will automatically have double his training effectiveness. The other thing that pisses me off about this is that you assume every single fucking training runs on a multiplier. When Goku was ‘over 8,000’ King Kai stated that he had surpassed him in every way except comedy. Logically, the humans would top out at this as well. Of course, we do have to take into account that Yamcha was there for much of the time, so he would indeed increase the effectiveness of the training for Tien and Chaozu. Chaozu was too weak to count as a sparring partner for reasons I have discussed in another thread(I will quote the post if you want). So this may indeed double the effectiveness. But still, this would only merit power levels of around 20k or so. Nothing drastic like this 90k bullshit you guys come up with.

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If it was that drastic, don't you think that he would've mentioned something about his training skills being increased or something.

Plus I got more evidence. Yamcha was stated to be weaker than Krillin, yet Krillin never went to King Kai's. So obviously just incorporating someone's style into your own doesn't increase your training effectivness by that much more.

Three things:
1. I think Krillin started off stronger, much stronger(I put him at 300,000 by the end of the Frieza Battle), compared to perhaps 15,000 for Yamcha post King Kai's.
2. Krillin has Roshi and Kami training(and Korin?), Yamcha has those and King Kai's. Thats only one more master, so although it would make a difference its not a massively x10 stronger drastic one.
3. From his attitude in the manga, I believe that Yamcha trained even less than Krillin, who I don't think trained that hard. I think training-wise it goes: Vegeta>>Piccolo>Goku, Gohan, Tien>>Krillin>>Yamcha

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It was just an example number. I'm sure Bulma or Briefs could increase the levels it could go up to.

? As far as I'm aware Vegeta is stated to train at x500, I don't recall anything else mentioned.

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If Tien could learn in like a day, I'm sure Kami could've taught it to Popo.

Tien also learned the Kamehameha in 2 seconds I believe.

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So...what I'm saying is, don't use it as a basis for Tien's increases.

My god... I use it as a base, because its the only instance of known power growth through regular training. Not Master training. As as this only known instance is an increase of 5-6x, it makes a fuck of a lot more sense for Tien to be increasing at x2-x3 per year instead of +10% or something.

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The Super Saiyan is a legendary warrior. No mere attack should logically be able to get to heights of its power.

And did I ever deny that 10,000x is ridiculous? No. Look, its just obvious that the KiKoHo doesn't work like other ki attacks, and cannot be used as evidence.

Plus, he manages to stop one of Gotenks Buu's attacks later on. He would have to get what? Like 500x stronger in 7 years?

Bullshit.

Piccolo became as strong, then stronger than an SSJ as his base power. SSJ was also left in the dust by the Cell Saga, its not that amazing and legendary. Hell, even Gohan achieved it in a few weeks tops in the CoSaT. What about kaioken? Its a 'mere technique' and it becomes nearly half as powerful.

Also...

I would like you to state your intentions. Are you planning on PROVING that Tien is under a million, or just suggesting the idea?

Hero · 09-05-2008

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Originally Posted by USSJed

Three things:
1. I think Krillin started off stronger, much stronger(I put him at 300,000 by the end of the Frieza Battle), compared to perhaps 15,000 for Yamcha post King Kai's.
2. Krillin has Roshi and Kami training(and Korin?), Yamcha has those and King Kai's. Thats only one more master, so although it would make a difference its not a massively x10 stronger drastic one.
3. From his attitude in the manga, I believe that Yamcha trained even less than Krillin, who I don't think trained that hard. I think training-wise it goes: Vegeta>>Piccolo>Goku, Gohan, Tien>>Krillin>>Yamcha

1. No he's not.
2. Tien had Shen and Korin's training when he only got 1.16x a year.
3. What the hell? Give me some scans/quotes you are basing this on.

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? As far as I'm aware Vegeta is stated to train at x500, I don't recall anything else mentioned.

That was for the Android Saga. Nothing was mentioned for the Buu Saga.

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Tien also learned the Kamehameha in 2 seconds I believe.

He already knew the Dodonpa...all he had to do was make the beam bigger =/

And are actually suggesting Popo couldn't learn the Mafuba?

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My god... I use it as a base, because its the only instance of known power growth through regular training. Not Master training. As as this only known instance is an increase of 5-6x, it makes a fuck of a lot more sense for Tien to be increasing at x2-x3 per year instead of +10% or something.

Oh yeah, that makes real sense. Instead of basing it on what Tien has gained it the past...let's base it on someone else's training.

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Piccolo became as strong, then stronger than an SSJ as his base power. SSJ was also left in the dust by the Cell Saga, its not that amazing and legendary. Hell, even Gohan achieved it in a few weeks tops in the CoSaT. What about kaioken? Its a 'mere technique' and it becomes nearly half as powerful.

=/

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Plus, he manages to stop one of Gotenks Buu's attacks later on. He would have to get what? Like 500x stronger in 7 years?

Bullshit.

Don't ignore stuff.

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Also...

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I would like you to state your intentions. Are you planning on PROVING that Tien is under a million, or just suggesting the idea?

I am proving it. You're just being a bit too stubborn =/

Dupe of USSJed · 09-05-2008

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I am proving it.

You see, I typed out responses to half of what you typed when I remembered to check this. If you are going to prove it, then I demand that you post exact evidence that places Tien under 1,000,000.

The only acceptable evidence, is things like...

Quotes

I.E Goku:"Tien is power level 123,456"

And associations

I.E Robo-Nappa:"The Robo-Saibamen are Powerlevel 1,000,000, equal to Robo-Raditz in power"
On the next page Tien loses horribly to Robo-Raditz
(Although Obviously they need to be from the actual manga)

As well as text from the Daizenshuu(arguable at best), or interviews with Toriyama etc.

Those are the only, and I mean the only ways to prove Tiens power level. Come talk to me again when you find proof, or your willing to dismiss your 'I am proving Tien is under 1,000,000' attitude.

Hero · 09-05-2008

So you admit that you are wrong?

Dupe of USSJed · 09-05-2008

I nearly negged you for that.

Now go find exact proof, or admit its only speculation. Also, inb4bullshit I have already declared all my 'Tien is over a million' to be speculation also, so don't go there.

09-05-2008	#1 (permalink)
Hero (24) Super Saiyan 4 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: USA Posts: 3,166 Rep Power: 135	Tien is under a million. Alright kiddies, today I will be discussing why Tien is not as high as many of you seem to think, and that his power level is actually under 1,000,000. Many of you may disagree with me at first, but over time hopefully you will learn to accept the fact that your favorite men of Dragon Ball are nothing but weak ass humans. Why you assume that they have to be on par with Super Saiyans, simply because of the fact they were in the same show as them, without any proof what so ever, really baffles me. Now, this thread will focus mainly on Tien, but Krillin and Yamcha are also obviously under 1,000,000, and do follow the same principals. First, we will start with countering the most common arguments used by fanboys of the humans. The ones that relate specifically to Tien include: 1.He must be in the millions to have a reasonable Ki Ko Ho multiplier. 2.Piccolo gained 5x his power level by self training, this is undeniable proof that Tien got exactly the same increase. 3.Tien said he wanted harder training, obviously this means he was 90,000 after King Kai’s training. 4.Tien trains serious…therefore he manages to reach one million. 5.Tien gained more at Kami’s, therefore he gets more out of training than Goku. 1: He must be in the millions eh? Bullshit. Obviously he was weaker than the Base Saiyans for obvious reasons, so this automatically puts him below what? 9,000,000 or so? Keep in mind this is ignoring any and all logic concerning his training increases. So…Semi Perfect Cell is generally agreed to be around a billion or so when suppressed. That’s a multiplier of 111x. You really think that that’s reasonable? Nonsense. Not even a Saiyan transformation at this point could get you that, some mere attack is not going to have this much power. 111x is just as ridiculous as 10,000x. Even if we were to drop Semi Cell down to 500,000,000 it would still yield around a 50x increase. Tien’s no Super Saiyan, so I don’t see why that’s logical. If you could gain that much power through attacks, what’s the point of transforming? The idea of a multiplier for the KiKoHo is a plothole in itself, and should not try to be rationalized, or even used as proof of Tien’s power. He would have to be at around 100 million at the very least for this to make the slightest bit of sense. 2: This one is easy to disprove. First of all, Piccolo was not self training. He trained with Gohan for 6 months. Gohan has been shown to increase his power when in harm’s way(shown when Piccolo through him against the cliff) or if Piccolo ever pissed him off. He would likely provide a great workout for Piccolo, and he would be much more accustomed to fighting after his 6 months of wilderness. So no, this is not self training evidence. Not even close. 3: A lot of you guys are so focused on the fact that ‘King Kai said he would train them harder.’ When in reality, this never happened. All he stated was that they wanted harder training than Goku. This does not mean in the slightest that they will automatically have double his training effectiveness. The other thing that pisses me off about this is that you assume every single fucking training runs on a multiplier. When Goku was ‘over 8,000’ King Kai stated that he had surpassed him in every way except comedy. Logically, the humans would top out at this as well. Of course, we do have to take into account that Yamcha was there for much of the time, so he would indeed increase the effectiveness of the training for Tien and Chaozu. Chaozu was too weak to count as a sparring partner for reasons I have discussed in another thread(I will quote the post if you want). So this may indeed double the effectiveness. But still, this would only merit power levels of around 20k or so. Nothing drastic like this 90k bullshit you guys come up with. 4: This isn’t really an argument. Everyone in Dragon Ball trained seriously(with the exception of Yajirobe) so this doesn’ t merit a higher increase . 5: Another easy one to disprove. You forget that when Goku went to Kami’s to train, he had no one to partner train with. Once he surpassed Mr. Popo(which he could’ve done in like a week for all we know) he really had no one else to help he get any further. Tien had Yamcha, Chaozu(to an extent..), and Krillin who were constantly gaining power right along with him. They could continually spar evenly with each other. Yamcha and Krillin were surpassed, but this is just most likely due to the fact that Tien started higher. Now for the fun part. Proving what Tien’s power level really was. So we first start out with Tien at a power level of around 142. He had a slight advantage over Roshi(139), so that’s why I placed him there. After this he trains ‘hard/seriously/whatever’ for 3 years with Korin and gains about 1.5x his power level. How do I know? Well he couldn’t have reached 250 just yet, assuming that he did train in the 5 year gap. I think most people like to put him around 220. So that’s a 1.51x increase. Which is around 1.16x a year. Yes, not some random whole number like you seem to think, just 1.16x. And this could potentially be partner training with Yamcha and Krillin. For the sake of the argument we’ll assume he wasn’t. We can also assume that he surpassed Korin’s training regimen pretty quickly as well. It has also been shown that the stronger you get, the harder it is to improve. Take Krillin for example. He gained around 2-3x his strength while training at Master Roshi’s the first time. Yet the second time he does, this time for three years, he barely gets even a 2x increase at most. So, why do you think that in the Android saga, when Tien is in the thousands to start with, he gains 5x a year? Ridiculous to say the least. Some people do say that he incorporated King Kai’s style into his own, which would increase the effectiveness of his training. I don’t understand that though. The stuff King Kai taught them was most likely just workouts for power levels that aren’t even at 10,000 yet, so I doubt they would help someone who, by your logic, had reached a million. I agree that they would boost his training to an extent. Maybe a bit higher than 1.5x a year if you want to go by multipliers, but certainly not this 5x bullshit that some of you come up with. Now, as you can hopefully see. Tien has no hope of every lasting even a second against a SSJ in battle, or even brushing the one million mark. Just because the Saiyans became overpowered doesn’t mean that you have to do the same for the humans. They were basically useless in fights after the Ginyu saga, so they have no reason really to be as high as you place them, other than to satisfy your fanboyism. __________________ Top 5 Manga: 1. Dragon Ball 2. One Piece 3. Hunter x Hunter 4. Vagabond 5. Hikaru No Go Dragon Ball/Z Power Levels

09-05-2008	#3 (permalink)
SSJ4 Vegito (25) Kami of Earth Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 4,433 Rep Power: 134	Re: Tien is under a million. I'm not sure where to place the humans anymore. It's a pretty good analysis, I do think that Tien's training was increased as well since he simply has to push his limit and do that training exercise better. As for the Ki-Ko-ho thing I agree isn't proof that Tien is strong but I would say that it simply has a special purpose kind of like the Kienzan has no Multiplication factor it just cuts through stuff. Kind of like a knife, if your stabbed in the chest with a knife even if your strong you will get hurt since the sharp edge simply tears through your flesh. I'm not saying it has the same purpose as the Kienzan but prehaps it just vaporizes stuff. Like at the 22nd Budokai. Tien's blast only seemed to blind the spectators not blow them away like an explosion would at that close range. __________________ 90% of DragonBall fans detest DragonBall GT If you're one of the 10% of fans who actually like GT, post this in your signature. "If everything God did made sense he wouldn't be 'God" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4afhQK_sXgQ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAi7ZDY2q4s- Dead sea scrolls http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU_rTX23V7Q for fellow Christians

09-05-2008	#10 (permalink)
Hero (24) Super Saiyan 4 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: USA Posts: 3,166 Rep Power: 135	Re: Tien is under a million. So you admit that you are wrong? __________________ Top 5 Manga: 1. Dragon Ball 2. One Piece 3. Hunter x Hunter 4. Vagabond 5. Hikaru No Go Dragon Ball/Z Power Levels

09-05-2008	#11 (permalink)
Dupe of USSJed (28) Lord of Worlds Join Date: May 2008 Location: drawing. Im kinda the best drawer in my class , not to brag or anything Posts: 7,539 Rep Power: 195	Re: Tien is under a million. I nearly negged you for that. Now go find exact proof, or admit its only speculation. Also, inb4bullshit I have already declared all my 'Tien is over a million' to be speculation also, so don't go there. __________________ Is Tien fucking strong? Damn right he is. http://anime.myfavoritegames.com/ani...hs-humans.html SSJ3 Gotenks kicks ass btw.