Tien is under a million. - Page 3

Hero · 09-05-2008

Holy shit the predator, calm down! And that was a very bad response with far too many assumptions.

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Originally Posted by the predator

1. some mere attack?!?! We're TALKING about the attack that makes the key trademark attack in DBZ look like dog piss (referring to the kamehameha btw in case you're wondering). The Ki ko ho does not yield that much of a multiplier. We know this because 2 Cell Jrs used it against SSJ2 gohan and had no effect on him AND we see Tien use it against Nappa (even though he's really weak at that point) and have no effect on him. The Shin Ki ko ho on the other hand is a much more refined version. Now as to why the multiplier is so high is none of my concern. There are many theories as to how it can be that high but we do know for certain that he developed the technique sometime after King Kai's training. Therefore it could have some principles of Kaioken in it (I'm NOT saying Tien can do Kaioken but let's say King Kai saw Tien training and decided to give him some pointers). Anyways irregardless of how it happened, you can't just say its another 'plot hole' cause its not. We only see the shin kikoho twice and its power is demonstrated in abundance. Hell I can say SSJ2 and SSJ3 are big plotholes just because I don't like them. Fact is Shin Kikoho is super multiplier attack (much like the kienzan) unless you wish to admit that Tien was somehow at SSJ level during the android saga (which even I'm not that idiotic to buy)

When did I ever deny that it had an extremely high multiplier? All I said was that you couldn't use it as evidence of Tien's power. Which you seemed to have agreed with. Moving along.

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2. God this is such a stupid argument. Piccolo might have gotten a small increase from the training with Gohan but that compensates for all the time he wasted teaching the boy how to fight. Gohan is 90% of the time not enraged therefore 90% of the time a fucking weakling which only held Piccolo back.

God quit assuming everying you see in filler holds value. All that was seen in the manga was Gohan kicking the wilds ass and him sparring with Piccolo.

I lol'd really hard at your #4 response. Possibly the worst rebuttal I've ever heard from you.

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EVERYONE in dragonball trains seriously?? Yamcha hardly ever trains, Chiaotsu is a push-over, Gohan hardly ever trains, Goten hardly ever trains, Trunks hardly ever trains. The only people who train seriously are: Tien, Piccolo, Vegeta and Goku NO ONE ELSE.

How do you know?

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But its not a case of Tien training seriously. Its a case of efficiency training. Tien is the one who gets the most out of training: After training wtih Crane we see that Tien is very versatile he learns: Tayoken, Kikoho, Shiyoken. ALL BY HIMSELF.

How do you know? And how the hell does this have anything to do with his training increases?

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He has INVENTED those techniques which means he's the most efficient self-trainer in DBZ (only Piccolo can rival him).

More assumptions...

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Who else has invented techniques of their own? Goku doesn't have only self-made technique in his arsenal, NOT ONE (maybe some different variations of the kamehameha), Vegeta? He has two techniques: Big bang attack and Final flash, not too different from Garriku Ho so he's not original.

Who the fuck cares?

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Yamcha? Sokidan, not too hard to come up with. Kurirrin has the kienzan to his name but that's not enough to merit him a more efficient trainer than Tien. See? Tien is the most versatile trainer EVER. He'll find a way to get himself into the next level. If he had gone to RoSaT/Gravity machine he'd be in par with 100% Frieza, no question.

How do you know?

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Also Tien learned Multi-form after Korin's so if he wanted, he could just spar with himself. So he always has a sparring partner and he can analyze his weaknesses from his own eyes; a BIG advantage.

He was never shown to use multi form in training =/. So you're basically basing this on nothing.

And a lot of other people have partner trained as well. Seems this advantage isn't as BIG as you thought.

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5. Tien only a spent a fraction of time at Kami's. He then went on to train for himself: That is where he got the huge increase.

How do you know?

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PLUS Goku mentions when he enters with Gohan in the RoSaT (Dubline?), that he spent some time in there when he was a kid but couldn't last further than a few months.

Yeah...I really doubt he was able to get that much training out of it.

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So Goku got RoSaT training when he was at Kami's and STILL couldn't get the same out of it as the humans did.

Hmm I wonder why? Oh, maybe because he no one to fucking spar with?

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Plus to prove this point: Goku and Krillin increased proportionally during the Muten Roshi training. (the only reason why Goku got close to winning against Jackie Chun is because of his transformation otherwise Roshi would've won before getting his ass kicked).

What the fuck does that have to do with it?

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Also as Jed said Mr. Popo could've increase his power as well, we see him tangle with two SSJs lol (filler?) AND Kami could've also sparred with Goku during the 3-year period, which is very difficult training in itself since Goku had to spar with him and Mr.Popo with weights.

1) That was filler.
2) Kami didn't spar with him. And if he did, he wasn't increasing his power along with Goku.

I'll finish this later.

the predator · 09-05-2008

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Originally Posted by hero_764

Holy shit the predator, calm down! And that was a very bad response with far too many assumptions.

When did I ever deny that it had an extremely high multiplier? All I said was that you couldn't use it as evidence of Tien's power. Which you seemed to have agreed with. Moving along.

God quit assuming everying you see in filler holds value. All that was seen in the manga was Gohan kicking the wilds ass and him sparring with Piccolo. (1)

I lol'd really hard at your #4 response. Possibly the worst rebuttal I've ever heard from you.

How do you know?

How do you know? And how the hell does this have anything to do with his training increases?(2)

More assumptions...(3)

Who the fuck cares?(4)

How do you know?(5)

He was never shown to use multi form in training =/. So you're basically basing this on nothing.

And a lot of other people have partner trained as well. Seems this advantage isn't as BIG as you thought.(6)

How do you know?(7)

Yeah...I really doubt he was able to get that much training out of it. (8)

Hmm I wonder why? Oh, maybe because he no one to fucking spar with?

What the fuck does that have to do with it? (9)

1) That was filler.
2) Kami didn't spar with him. And if he did, he wasn't increasing his power along with Goku.

I'll finish this later.(10)

Fine no.1 out of the way.

Bold 1: True, but we also see him as a whiny little brat in the beginning of DBZ so Piccolo had to spend some time to get that out of his system (common sense)

Bold 2: Because he's the only one we see use them, Chiaotsu and Tao are other Crane pupils and we never witness these attacks from them. Its proof that Tien is the one that gets the most out of training from particular masters.

Bold 3: Why are they assumptions? Piccolo increased 5x in a year and I don't think Gohan had a lot to do with it.

Bold 4: I do, because the more attacks you have the stronger you are. If you can learn new attacks on constant basis than you can certainly increase your power level because you are always training DIFFERENTLY therefore you work on different parts of your technique. I:E Let's use a gym analogy, Let's say Vegeta only trains his chest while Tien trains every part of his body who do you think is going to get more out of training? This is my point.

Bold 5: True, that is an assumption. I can't know for sure.

Bold 6: We never see him training in multi-form because we NEVER see him training. IF he did train then I bet he would've used multi-form to better himself as for the second statement. He has a bigger advantage because as I said before he has the opportunity to see what he's doing wrong.

Bold 7: I thought that was stated that he only spent 3 (?) months at Kami's. Sorry my bad

Bold 8: I'm going to take a page of your (small) book: "How do you know?"

Bold 9: Proving that Saiyans don't increase that much more than humans when given the same training regimen

Bold 10: 1) Glad to know that was filler, I was only kidding

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2) we never see Goku's training so Kami might have sparred with him and even though he didn't increase his own PL, we see with the fight with Piccolo Jr that he wasn't that much weaker than Goku and he was obviously superior to Goku (with weights on) so if he sparred with Goku (with weights on) then Goku would've had a good work out.

OH you better run!! (hehe j/k)

On a sidenote I'd like to say that you can only base Tien's PL on assumptions because we never see him train. That is: IF he trained because that's another matter entirely.

Vicdmx · 09-05-2008

This is how I see it at the end of Z(Humans):

1. Uub

2. Tien(3 Million)

3. Krillin(2 Million)

4. Yamcha(100,000)

5. Chaoz(35,000)

That´s how I see it to be honest.

Hero · 09-05-2008

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Originally Posted by the predator

Fine no.1 out of the way.

Bold 1: True, but we also see him as a whiny little brat in the beginning of DBZ so Piccolo had to spend some time to get that out of his system (common sense)

Uhh..
1) When was he shown to be a whiny brat?
2) He was clearly shown to be ahead of his age in the wilderness training.

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Bold 2: Because he's the only one we see use them, Chiaotsu and Tao are other Crane pupils and we never witness these attacks from them. Its proof that Tien is the one that gets the most out of training from particular masters.

That made no sense. Inventing an attack doesn't make you stronger.

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Bold 3: Why are they assumptions? Piccolo increased 5x in a year and I don't think Gohan had a lot to do with it.

Gohan had a lot to do with it. When he's in the face of danger his power rises(as seen with him being thrown against a cliff).

Plus Piccolo was training to beat Goku for 3 years, and he didn't even double his power. Obviously Gohan helped him.

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Bold 4: I do, because the more attacks you have the stronger you are. If you can learn new attacks on constant basis than you can certainly increase your power level because you are always training DIFFERENTLY therefore you work on different parts of your technique. I:E Let's use a gym analogy, Let's say Vegeta only trains his chest while Tien trains every part of his body who do you think is going to get more out of training? This is my point.

Ok...so basically you're suggesting that if Tien does a kikoho and then a Dodonpa, he will get more out of training. wtf?

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Bold 6: We never see him training in multi-form because we NEVER see him training. IF he did train then I bet he would've used multi-form to better himself as for the second statement. He has a bigger advantage because as I said before he has the opportunity to see what he's doing wrong.

You can't just assume stuff like this. Its not real life, its just a story. If Toriyama doens't either put it in his story or strongly imply it it didn't happen.

Plus I'm not understanding what you mean. Knowing your mistakes and knowing your opponent's mistakes are two entirely different things. Just face it, you're pulling stuff out of your ass for this argument.

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Bold 7: I thought that was stated that he only spent 3 (?) months at Kami's. Sorry my bad

He spent 6 months, but what I was referring to was you suggesting that he gained most of his power after Kami's training.

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Bold 8: I'm going to take a page of your (small) book: "How do you know?"

He could barely live in there, I doubt he found the time to do some intense training.

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Bold 9: Proving that Saiyans don't increase that much more than humans when given the same training regimen

I don't care. Not once did I mention the saiyans increasing more during training.

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Bold 10: 1) Glad to know that was filler, I was only kidding

,
2) we never see Goku's training so Kami might have sparred with him and even though he didn't increase his own PL, we see with the fight with Piccolo Jr that he wasn't that much weaker than Goku and he was obviously superior to Goku (with weights on) so if he sparred with Goku (with weights on) then Goku would've had a good work out.

Hmm, good point. But, Piccolo also had weights on when he fought Kami.

Plus when Kami is training the humans he is just watching, whilst Popo is actually sparring.

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In the five year gap Tien is shown to being constantly pestered by Launch which hinders his training.

I can tell you pulled that one out of your ass xD. This was never shown.

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As for the Krillin argument: Krillin does the same regimen with Master Roshi, that he did in his first training.

How do you know?

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Tien doesn't work like that, after mastering a person's training he utilizes the stuff he learns and comes up with a new challenge.

Major assumption here dude.

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This is proven when from the above points that I mention (where he is the one that creates the most useful techniques+ Its not as if Tien starting catching Bubbles all over again, he has more common sense than that)

Sorry to burst your bubble, but coming up with techniques has absolutely nothing to do with how efficient you train.

I mean King Kai created the Genki Dama, the most powerful attack in the show, does that mean he is a more efficient trainer?

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My bad, it was in my deleted post. That blast was aimed at Dende and Hercule, I don't see why it would be very strong.

I thought it was aimed at Ultimate Gohan? Can someone post a scan to clarify this?

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Regardless, it took him 3 days and Roshi 1 year or 3 years. And how do you know Roshi has gotten much stronger?

It was stated somewhere that it was when Roshi was teenager. And then in the King Piccolo saga it said that Roshi was taught under his 'master'(who taught him the mafuba) in his youth.

So I would assume he hadn't reached the power he was at in Dragon Ball.

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Well I must have missed it, kindly quote your answers to both. I think your avoiding facing the fact that a 'mere techique' taught by the craptastic King Kai could get half as strong as your precious super saiyan, which would mean the Kikoho could indeed be x50 and not be outrageous

What? All I said was that I made it clear you ignored my point.

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Goku was raising a son and living with Chi Chi, Piccolo also states Goku has been somewhat lazy, and I don't remember any quotes about how Goku had to keep training in case Piccolo came. If there are any(Which there may be) please post them up.

I think something was said at the end of DB. I'll check later.

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For obvious reasons? Such as what?

1) Roshi practically states its a different type of attack.
2) It takes only a few seconds to charge.
3) It's barely a beam.
4) The Gotenks buu stuff, which may or may not be true, but if it is I think that basically shoots this Tien tri beam stuff away for good.

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Edit: Tomorrow morning I am going on holiday for about 5 days. Thats your big chance to convert people to your side, but you'd better have some stronger arguments when I get back.

Lol, "my side".

Glue · 09-05-2008

I still think that anyone who thinks Yamcha is in the hundred thousands is being way too generous. Only Tien and Krillin stated that they would train for the androids. Yamcha showed no evidence that he did train. Though I have Yamcha at 48,000 in the Androids saga and 8,000 in the Trunks saga. It doesnt really matter because Yamcha only fights a saibamen in all of DBZ.

Hero · 09-05-2008

I think it was heavily implied that they were all going to train.

the predator · 09-05-2008

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Plus Piccolo was training to beat Goku for 3 years, and he didn't even double his power. Obviously Gohan helped him.

How do you know he didn't double his power? Maybe Goku did as well, he didn't actually stop training because he still uses his weighed clothing by the time Raditz shows up. I assume a lot of things but you do as well, saying Gohan helped him when Piccolo had to teach him how to fight is a big assumption on your part.

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Ok...so basically you're suggesting that if Tien does a kikoho and then a Dodonpa, he will get more out of training. wtf?

No, its the period you train in when you learn the attack. Remember Goku against King Piccolo? He had mastered the kamehameha so much that was able to make it come out of his FEET. That was a big factor in the win, by practicing kamehameha for so long he learned more about energy manipulation.

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You can't just assume stuff like this. Its not real life, its just a story. If Toriyama doens't either put it in his story or strongly imply it it didn't happen.

Plus I'm not understanding what you mean. Knowing your mistakes and knowing your opponent's mistakes are two entirely different things. Just face it, you're pulling stuff out of your ass for this argument.

First part: Well if that's how you want to argue then I can say hey 'you can't prove Goku ever reached 300 million when he went SSJ3' even though its obvious that he did.

Second part: What don't you get? You are your opponent in Multi-form so finding a way to beat yourself means you have to find your weakness and then once you realize what it is you can improve upon it.

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He could barely live in there, I doubt he found the time to do some intense training.

I think learning to walk in itself would be a good exercise (high gravity)

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I don't care. Not once did I mention the saiyans increasing more during training.

Then what's your point? So if you don't believe that and you believe that base Goku is around [insert random number here] by the end of Z then you must believe that Tien is a fraction of his power according to how much Goku gained through zenkais/gravitron training/Otherworld training/RoSaT. Right?

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Hmm, good point. But, Piccolo also had weights on when he fought Kami.

Plus when Kami is training the humans he is just watching, whilst Popo is actually sparring.

True but even with weights on Piccolo was still a handful AND Kami tried to end it quickly by using the Mafuuba. As for watching the humans, while the saiyans were his responsibility as the earth's guardian he wasn't the one who caused them to come but with Piccolo he was responsible PERSONALLY so he wanted to prepare Goku for Piccolo because it was his mess and he felt guilty for it. Plus Goku spent 3 years there and he wasn't about to let Goku be idle while he was there so he might've sparred with him. On the other hand the Humans had each other to spar with so he didn't feel the need to contribute.

Yes these are all assumptions.

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I can tell you pulled that one out of your ass xD. This was never shown.

Shit, sorry I read the manga long ago (on the internet) and watched the anime one too many times so forgive me if I confuse the two.

Anyways there's another valid reason why Tien doesn't reach Goku during the 5 year training period. Goku trains with weighted clothing Tien doesn't.

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How do you know?

Krillin was a kid, he couldn't have come up with his own training regimen and since Yamcha had to do it for the first time, I guess he had no choice but to do it along with him (since Roshi can't teach two pupils differently at the same time)

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Major assumption here dude.

Assumption taken from the fact that Tien created those effective techniques after Crane's training.

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Sorry to burst your bubble, but coming up with techniques has absolutely nothing to do with how efficient you train.

True but coming up with great techniques reflects how you train.

Final flash : good technique
Garriku Ho: good technique
Big bang attack: good technique

Kikoho: great technique
Shiyoken: great technique
Tayoken: great technique

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I mean King Kai created the Genki Dama, the most powerful attack in the show, does that mean he is a more efficient trainer?

Umm...tell me who the most efficient trainer in DBZ then?

Evil Vegeta · 09-05-2008

Piccolo only called Goku a "slacker" because he didn't develop any new skills. This is during the battle with Raditz.

Goku also says that Popo was the one who trained him, not Kami.

the predator · 09-05-2008

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Originally Posted by Evil Vegeta

Piccolo only called Goku a "slacker" because he didn't develop any new skills. This is during the battle with Raditz.

Goku also says that Popo was the one who trained him, not Kami.

That doesn't mean he didn't train.

Popo is the one that trained him (sensing energy bla bla) but that doesn't mean Kami didn't spar with him.

Evil Vegeta · 09-05-2008

Who said Goku didn't train? Certainly not me. Goku even told Piccolo that both of them must have been training a whole lot since their battle when they were removing their weights.

Kami (Shen) stated that he left the "majority" of training up to Popo, so I doubt it was much sparring with Kami to begin with.

Glue · 09-05-2008

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Originally Posted by hero_764

I think it was heavily implied that they were all going to train.

Yamcha never stated he was going to train. All he said is that he couldnt keep up with Goku. I do believe he did train but not nearly as much as Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Tien, Gohan, and Krillin.

the predator · 09-05-2008

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Originally Posted by Evil Vegeta

Who said Goku didn't train? Certainly not me. Goku even told Piccolo that both of them most of by training a whole lot since their battle when they were removing their weights.

Kami (Shen) stated that he left the "majority" of training up to Popo, so I doubt it was much sparring with Kami to begin with.

Then why did you mention that fact to begin with? (randomness?)

The majority could be two years, so he might've sparred with Goku in one year (exaggerating here but you get my point)

09-05-2008	#33 (permalink)
Vicdmx (22) Super Saiyan 3 Join Date: May 2008 Location: UK Posts: 1,934 Rep Power: 40	Re: Tien is under a million. This is how I see it at the end of Z(Humans): 1. Uub 2. Tien(3 Million) 3. Krillin(2 Million) 4. Yamcha(100,000) 5. Chaoz(35,000) That´s how I see it to be honest. __________________

09-05-2008	#35 (permalink)
Glue (13) Great Ape Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: New Mexico Posts: 301 Rep Power: 15	Re: Tien is under a million. I still think that anyone who thinks Yamcha is in the hundred thousands is being way too generous. Only Tien and Krillin stated that they would train for the androids. Yamcha showed no evidence that he did train. Though I have Yamcha at 48,000 in the Androids saga and 8,000 in the Trunks saga. It doesnt really matter because Yamcha only fights a saibamen in all of DBZ. __________________ DBZ Power Level List: http://anime.myfavoritegames.com/ani...er-levels.html DBZ Power Level Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/1337Glue

09-05-2008	#36 (permalink)
Hero (24) Super Saiyan 4 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: USA Posts: 3,166 Rep Power: 135	Re: Tien is under a million. I think it was heavily implied that they were all going to train. __________________ Top 5 Manga: 1. Dragon Ball 2. One Piece 3. Hunter x Hunter 4. Vagabond 5. Hikaru No Go Dragon Ball/Z Power Levels

09-05-2008	#43 (permalink)
Hero (24) Super Saiyan 4 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: USA Posts: 3,166 Rep Power: 135