Dupe of USSJed

My god, just drop the DB Piccolo multipler thing, its just a fucking random number, note the x1.05whatever. What I am trying to say is he went from some shitting fraction of a pecent per year to x5 to x8.75(daizenshuu) increase.

So do you think Tien is in the megamillions?

Normal Training: Not training under a master, such as King Kai or whatever.
Partner Training: Training with another fighter

It doesn't need to be hinted at. Lets say you train for a race by running, but then after training with some master he tells you that running in high heels is 100x more effective. From then on all your running-training would be done in high heels, regardless of if you were training with the master or by yourself. Correct?

Edit: On top of that, Tien states he is going to take parts of King Kais training and modify his own training with it, or words to that meaning.

Final explosion uses exactly the same energy as Kikoho. What your saying, is...

Vegeta(SSJ2) 10,000
Tien(base) 1

Vegetas life force explosion 30,000(x3)
Tiens life force kikoho 10,000(x10,000)

Sorry man, but that makes no sense. And don't try to say it doesn't use the same energy, the attack turned Vegeta to stone, meaning it used up all his life/ki.

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Hero

Ok, just quit using it to try to prove your point.






Ok, the majority of the gains from King Kai's training was due to the high levels of gravity. I'll bet that Tien already learned some effective training methods from the Crane Master. What special training could he do on King Kai's planet that he couldn't do on earth? Run around and catch a monkey? Just run a few laps around the world lol.

Quote:

Edit:

Scan?

Prove it.

edit: Your logic is fucked up to begin with. You're basically arguing with yourself. You say that his Ki Ko Ho used normal ki like the Kamehameha, but you have yet to explain how the fuck it has a 175x increase to begin with. And you're also basically saying that SSJ2 Majin Vegeta x1000<Fat Boo(majur contradiction much?)

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Dupe of USSJed

What the hell are you talking about. I am saying that even with your claims of Dragon Ball's +10% per year or whatever training multipliers, than Piccolo went from that to x5 or more per year. So its entirely possible to believe that Tien could go from +2% or whatever per year to x3 per year.

Piccolo increased by an estimated 50 to 100 times in Earths gravity. This is evidence that gravity means fuck all. And besides, wearing weights that equal your body weight=training in x2 gravity. Add more weight=add more gravity.

Firstly, I am saying and have always said, that I don't know if Kikoho uses life force. What I am saying, is that if it doesn't, then theres no way its x10,000 of Tiens strength. If it does, then it is the same sort of technique as Vegeta's final explosion.

By insisting that it uses life force, you are agreeing with the statement SSJ2 Vegetax1000<<Majin Buu, that is what your argument states as fact. If Kikoho is x10,000 due to using Tiens life force, Vegeta's final explosion is exactly the same thing because it used all of his life force/ki/whatever causing him to turn to stone.

Provided.

Firstly, its a logical comparison. Secondly, prove that Tien uses life force for the kikoho, and not just 'too much ki'

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Hero

I already explained that you can't prove Piccolo's increases, but Tien's can be. And this basically helps prove that partner training>>>>>self training


Jesus man, enough with Piccolo's Android Saga increases. If you learn to fight with someone over a 100x stronger than you then hell yeah you're gonna be getting higher increases.


No, its not. You don't turn to stone when you use up all your energy. Its never explained how Vegeta's attack works, but its highly unlikely its the same as Tien's Ki Ko Ho(simply because it didn't multiply his power by 1,000 like you've said)

Read above.


where?

Do I have to repeat myself again(and no, its not even close to a logical comparison, unless you are able to prove otherwise, which you aren't).

It is 101% unlogical that an attack using ki would multiply your power level by 175x at the least(according to you)

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Dupe of USSJed

Ok now I am sure of it. You have no fucking clue what I am arguing do you. I have never, never said that self training=/>partner training.

The Manga proof, is Piccolo went from 400 to at least 1200 in a year. That is an undisputable x3 increase. The rest comes from logic/daizenshuu.


Ok, so do you have a better idea? What the fuck did the attack do if it did not use up all of Vegetas life energy?

And I still don't see a manga scan, quote etc that the Kikoho uses life energy

Doh, here

Attached Images

22134.gif (31.5 KB, 8 views)

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Hero

Lol, dude, I know. I was just saying it would help explain more why Piccolo gained more than Tien during the three years of training.

Yes, but training with Gohan = partner training =/

Key word is final explosion. I have no fucking clue why he turned to stone, and neither do you. But its ridiculous to assume he was using the same energy Tien was.

And I still don't see a counter for how his attack multiplied his power by 175 if it used simple ki.

Anyways, here(viz manga quote):

Volume 12, Page 8: "It's a terrible move that can even kill the one who uses it."

Notice how nothing else was said about any other attack in the entire series.

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Dupe of USSJed

A picture says a thousand words, and we saw Vegeta kill himself with his attack.

Explain the key word. He turned to stone because he used up his life force. Assumption? Yes, but its logical, and every other time I've seen someone turn to stone its been for a similar reason(cept for Final Fantasy).

Ok, I think we are both confused here. I don't know if the attack uses Ki or Lifeforce, and have never assumed either(well I used to assume lifeforce until earlier in this thread)

If its a Ki Attack and not a lifeforce attack, the notion that Tien would be 50x weaker than Cell, let alone 175x or god forbid 10,000x weaker and still have an effect is ridiculous.

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Hero

I think you're just arguing with yourself. This is pretty simple to explain..

Since we both agree that Tien could not reach a power level in the hundred millions, thus giving his ki ko ho a reasonable multiplier for a simple ki attack.

So, unless you can prove that it was possible for Tien to be at least 100 million, he must have been using life force(or w/e you wanna call it).

The reason Vegeta's final explosion didn't use life force is because a) you don't turn to stone when you die/tien didn't turn to stone after ki ko hoing raditz and b) like you've said before, its impossible for him to have multiplier his power by 1,000 and still not kill Fat Buu.

It's as simple as that...you can't ignore the facts. Tien's ki ko ho used a different energy than the normal ki. It was even stated by Muten Roshi that the attack was special, and it is the only attack in the series that had the potential to kill the one who used it.

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Senzu_Bean

In my view Darkprince explained this subject very well in his two posts (I would rep him if I could (I don't know why I can't)).

Chi is the same as life force in DragonBall (I shouldn't it?!) and Kikoho it is Tenshinhan version of Kaiou-ken (which people don't ask questions about it).

Darkprince410

It isn't stated once that it uses a form of energy different than normal ki, so I don't know where you're coming from with this. The Ki Kou Hou has the potential to kill its user because of the enormous amounts of ki that the user has to expend in order to fire it. That's like how Gohan dropped from his Ssj2 form down to his base after his Kamehameha duel with Seru and collapsed to the ground, near unconscious with exhaustion. Tenshinhan's Ki Kou Hou and Shin Ki Kou Hou just draw a far more considerable amount of ki in comparison to the amount he possesses than Ssj2 Gohan's Kamehameha did in comparison to his ki level.

As stated and shown, Tenshinhan pointed out that he intended to amalgamate Kaiou-sama's training and techniques with his own style of fighting, because he couldn't copy Gokuu's results following the same training he undertook. Given the intensity of his Shin Ki Kou Hou in comparison to his normal Ki Kou Hou, it is then extremely likely that Tenshinhan incorporated some form of the Kaiou-ken into his Ki Kou Hou, so that it significantly amplified the level of power it would normally have.

This scenario is far more plausible than some notion of there being a difference between ki and life force (when it's stated repeatedly that ki is life force) or that Tenshinhan was far stronger than what most people consider him to be.

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Hero

Gohan didn't collapse simply because he had used too much ki. His arm was broken, his bones were weak from when Cell had beaten him up before, the pressure of the SSJ2 form and of Cell's kamehameha pressing against his arm, blood pouring out of his arm. It was an exhausting fight, but he wasn't about to die.

Actually in the Viz media translation he simply says he's going to add his own twists to King Kai's training, not add parts of it to his own.

Volume 6, Page 127: "I can't hope to surpass Goku at the same training regimen...but if I master the fundamentals of the technique and add a few twists of my own...I should be able to avoid another humiliating defeat."

Then explain how it has a huge multiplier. If he used Kaioken with it, where is his aura? Also, if Vegeta's attack is similiar(stated by you), it would have like a 1,000x multiplier right?

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Darkprince410

1) He wasn't about to die because he didn't use as much ki in relation to how much he possessed, whereas when Tenshinhan fired off the barrage of Shin Ki Kou Hou at Seru Stage 2, the amount of ki he was expelling from his body added up to the point that he had lost a dangerous amount of ki, to the point that his own life functions were at risk of failing.

2) That basically confirms what the japanese version of the manga says, which heavily implies that he took Kaiou-sama's training and adapted it to his own style.

3) Because it's a combination of his own ki style and that of the Kaiou-ken, it's possible that's why the aura that was surrounding him didn't resemble the Kaiou-ken aura that Gokuu was using. Or it's possible that because of how he's using it, it just wasn't having a chance to form.

I never said that the Shin Ki Kou Hou was the same as Bejiita's Ultimate Final Skill, so don't put words in my mouth. I said that the concept of expelling one's ki to the point that they die is not something unique to Tenshinhan and his Ki Kou Hou, as Bejiita's Ultimate Final Skill was basically just that. Tenshinhan wouldn't have been able to release enough ki for his body to turn to stone like Bejiita did, but he could (and in fact did) use enough ki in using his Ki Kou Hou that he died (when he fired it off at Nappa after Chiaotzu's failed self destruction).

I'd like to point out that, if the Ki Kou Hou is not fueled by ki, then why is the american translation of Ki Kou Hou basically mean "Ki Blast Cannon" (which means that some of the earlier Budoukai games got it correct when they called it as such)? Doesn't make any sense to call an energy attack that doesn't fire off ki "Ki Blast Cannon", does it?

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Dupe of USSJed