Kikoho Argument- Life Force - Page 4

Hero · 07-27-2008

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Originally Posted by Frieza the Tyrant

Listen, things in Dragonball don't always make sense. The point is to try to find reasons to make sense of the confusion.

And just because he spent 6 days there doesn't mean he didn't get stronger. It all depends on how much you train. He caught bubbles and gregory before the start of the Frieza saga so he must have been much stronger.

Whether or not you agree with the 20x in 6 days thing, it's still very possible for Tien to be in the low millions (at the least).

I believe every time you saw him training was filler. We just saw him stand behind King Kai and make comments to himself in the manga.

And besides, he stated he could never hope to surpass Goku, who was like maybe 12,000 with a zenkai. And c'mon, you seriously think he multiplied his power by 20 in just SIX DAYS. That's fucking ridiculous.

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Am I the only one who thinks this contradicts what you said earlier. Anyway, the DB-DBZ training was not mentioned to be hard, meanwhile the Z Fighters trained harder than ever during the 3 year period.

What does it contradict?

So what if they trained harder? Does that mean that their training will be so much more effective? No, it doesn't. We don't know how hard they trained, we never even saw Tien/Yamcha/Krillin train at all. And in DB Tien was training hard to surpass Goku in the next Budokai, and in DBZ they trained hard to put in end to the Saiyan threat.

Tyrant · 07-27-2008

OK, so I can agree with the 20x in 6 days thing being ridiculous (even though there are more ridiculous things like massive, random zenkais), but he must have gotten 20x at some point. Tien is not the kind of person to slack off.

Hero · 07-27-2008

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Originally Posted by Frieza the Tyrant

OK, so I can agree with the 20x in 6 days thing being ridiculous (even though there are more ridiculous things like massive, random zenkais), but he must have gotten 20x at some point. Tien is not the kind of person to slack off.

Ok ok, I agree he could've gotten to 36,000 by the end of his King Kai training. What I don't agree with is that he reached a power level of over a million after 3 years of training.

Tyrant · 07-27-2008

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Originally Posted by hero_764

Ok ok, I agree he could've gotten to 36,000 by the end of his King Kai training. What I don't agree with is that he reached a power level of over a million after 3 years of training.

There was a 5 year gap between his arrival on Earth and the Android Saga. He could've easily gotten to a million as I showed you with my calculations.

Hero · 07-27-2008

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Originally Posted by Frieza the Tyrant

There was a 5 year gap between his arrival on Earth and the Android Saga. He could've easily gotten to a million as I showed you with my calculations.

5 year gap? The hell? When did it say that? The Trunks saga was shortly after he was wished back I believe.

And I don't care about your calculations. They're wrong in my mind. You have yet to prove how he would have a 2x increase every year, when he previously had a 1.16x increase every year in DB. There is nothing to suggest that his training would suddenly be more than 5x more effective simply because he was going to 'train harder'.

There is also no real reason for him to be at a power level of over a million. The only way for his KiKoHo multiplier to be believable would be if he was at a hundred million or higher, which is just plain impossible.

The only logical explanation for it is that he would use his life force to power his kikoho, which actually doesn't depend on how high his power level is, as his life force will always be the same(unless he became immortal or something), and while at King Kai's he figured out a way to increase its power dramatically.

edit: nevermind, I just read a scanlation, and it said one year passed from when Tien was brought back and when Trunks came. So that's a four year gap...and even so, that's assuming that he would train during times of peace(I doubt he would. He would probably just do a daily exercise to keep himself in shape..)

Tyrant · 07-27-2008

Whatever, this is turning into an opinion argument and nobody wins in cases like these.

Hero · 07-27-2008

Yeah I've been in this argument since I joined this site...and it still hasn't gone anywhere =/(granted, I haven't been here for long)

Dupe of USSJed · 07-28-2008

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And I don't care about your calculations. They're wrong in my mind. You have yet to prove how he would have a 2x increase every year, when he previously had a 1.16x increase every year in DB. There is nothing to suggest that his training would suddenly be more than 5x more effective simply because he was going to 'train harder'.

Thats idi-fucking-otic ok. There is a massive difference between training hard and just training. Not just in DBZ, but in every sport known to man.

Tell me, where did this 1.16x increase come from? Regardless, note that Piccolo went from x1.105whatever to x8.75 per year. Later on, Piccolo went from 1-2million to like, 50-120 million. That could be a x120 in three years. The only stated increase was x8.75, not .05%, DBZ characters multiply their power levels by high single digit numbers through training, not insignificant fractions. Until you can prove otherwise, it is 110% acceptable to expect a similar level in increase for anyone training. Hell, even Toei agrees that the humans are fucking strong.

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There is also no real reason for him to be at a power level of over a million. The only way for his KiKoHo multiplier to be believable would be if he was at a hundred million or higher, which is just plain impossible.

I have Semicell at 430 million at that point, and Tien at about 2 million. Thats x175 for Kikoho. It's still crazy, but it maks much much much more sense than a x10,000 or x50,000 multiplier. Don't say things like 'it would only make sense if Tien was a hundred million or higher'

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The only logical explanation for it is that he would use his life force to power his kikoho, which actually doesn't depend on how high his power level is, as his life force will always be the same(unless he became immortal or something), and while at King Kai's he figured out a way to increase its power dramatically.

Perhaps it does, I certainly used to think so. But you should provide some sort of proof to show that it does. If it doesn't, then it is nigh-on impossible for Tien to be 10,000 or 50,000 at that point in the series, because that attack would be 10,000x stronger than anything else. If is it, then you need to counter my Vegeta explosion argument in order to make any progress with proving Tien's weakness.

Hero · 07-28-2008

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Originally Posted by USSJed

Thats idi-fucking-otic ok. There is a massive difference between training hard and just training. Not just in DBZ, but in every sport known to man.

Tell me, where did this 1.16x increase come from?

Eh? If you read my post in the other thread I explained it, but nevertheless here we go again:

Tien(22nd Budokai): Around 145-150, he had to be stronger than Roshi, who was at 139. He states he's going to be training hard to surpass Goku in the next Budokai.

Now, in the next one he could be as high as 250 after three years of training, but that's assuming that he trained in the 5 year gap. If you say he did, he was likely closer to 220 if his training meant anything. So really his multiplier for those three years was 1.46x-1.72x in 3 years. So that's 1.15x-1.24x multiplier each year for self training. And don't tell me that he was just doing 'normal' training when he made it clear he wanted to surpass Goku. He may not have trained as hard as he did for the androids, but I highly doubt he would've slacked off.

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Regardless, note that Piccolo went from x1.105whatever to x8.75 per year. Later on, Piccolo went from 1-2million to like, 50-120 million. That could be a x120 in three years. The only stated increase was x8.75, not .05%, DBZ characters multiply their power levels by high single digit numbers through training, not insignificant fractions. Until you can prove otherwise, it is 110% acceptable to expect a similar level in increase for anyone training. Hell, even Toei agrees that the humans are fucking strong.

Ok one, where the hell are you getting the 1.105 multiplier from? Second, he didn't have an 8.75x multiplier, it was more like a 5-6.25x multiplier(power level of 400 to a power level of 2000-2500). Quit fucking acting like its a stated fact, when its not. Tien had like a 7.2x multiplier, which is more. He did practically the same training as Piccolo, except he had more partners. And don't call Piccolo's training self training, its shown that whenever Gohan finds himself in danger, he unlocks some of his latent power(shown when Piccolo throws him against the cliff), so that would give Piccolo a great workout while sparring with him. Why would Piccolo want to train with Gohan if it would hold himself back?

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I have Semicell at 430 million at that point, and Tien at about 2 million. Thats x175 for Kikoho. It's still crazy, but it maks much much much more sense than a x10,000 or x50,000 multiplier. Don't say things like 'it would only make sense if Tien was a hundred million or higher'

So basically you're telling me that a multiplier given to a SSJ2 is believable for using a simple 'ki' attack?

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Perhaps it does, I certainly used to think so. But you should provide some sort of proof to show that it does. If it doesn't, then it is nigh-on impossible for Tien to be 10,000 or 50,000 at that point in the series, because that attack would be 10,000x stronger than anything else. If is it, then you need to counter my Vegeta explosion argument in order to make any progress with proving Tien's weakness.

Vegeta's explosion was not an attack like the Ki Ko Ho. When it killed Tien in the Saiyan Saga he didn't turn to stone...it's never explained how Vegeta's attack works, but assuming its like Tien's Ki Ko Ho is ridiculous. Unless you can find some proof that it is, I see no reason for me to take it seriously. And besides, I can assure you that SSJ2 Vegeta wasn't 175x weaker than Majin Buu.

As for proof. I already explained that never has someone else died from using too much ki. And Roshi stated that his attack was special.

Dupe of USSJed · 07-28-2008

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Ok one, where the hell are you getting the 1.105 multiplier from? Second, he didn't have an 8.75x multiplier, it was more like a 5-6.25x multiplier(power level of 400 to a power level of 2000-2500). Quit fucking acting like its a stated fact, when its not. Tien had like a 7.2x multiplier, which is more. He did practically the same training as Piccolo, except he had more partners. And don't call Piccolo's training self training, its shown that whenever Gohan finds himself in danger, he unlocks some of his latent power(shown when Piccolo throws him against the cliff), so that would give Piccolo a great workout while sparring with him. Why would Piccolo want to train with Gohan if it would hold himself back?

The 1.015whatever multiplier was just an estimation of Piccolo's crappy growth in DB.

The 8.75x multiplier comes from the Daizenshuu. If you don't want to consider the Daizenshuu fact, then he at least increased by x4 or x5. And I didn't call it self training, I always call it 'normal training' or 'partner training'. Tiens massive increase was due to training under Kami.

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Now, in the next one he could be as high as 250 after three years of training, but that's assuming that he trained in the 5 year gap. If you say he did, he was likely closer to 220 if his training meant anything. So really his multiplier for those three years was 1.46x-1.72x in 3 years. So that's 1.15x-1.24x multiplier each year for self training. And don't tell me that he was just doing 'normal' training when he made it clear he wanted to surpass Goku. He may not have trained as hard as he did for the androids, but I highly doubt he would've slacked off.

Ok, that makes sense. Now answer me this, is it unbelievable that Tien would take Kami and King Kai's training techniques and use them to improve his own training regimen? Actually, now that I think about it, that makes perfect sense and explains why up until the Z fighters arrived Ginyu was considered the 2nd strongest in the universe.

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Vegeta's explosion was not an attack like the Ki Ko Ho. When it killed Tien in the Saiyan Saga he didn't turn to stone...it's never explained how Vegeta's attack works, but assuming its like Tien's Ki Ko Ho is ridiculous. Unless you can find some proof that it is, I see no reason for me to take it seriously. And besides, I can assure you that SSJ2 Vegeta wasn't 175x weaker than Majin Buu.

As for proof. I already explained that never has someone else died from using too much ki. And Roshi stated that his attack was special.

Ok, if anything, Vegeta's explosion is more powerful than the Kikoho. He used all his power in one go, even the Kikoho required 5 shots to knock Tien out. Characters can faint or whatever from using up the last of their ki in a crappy blast. I don't feel strongly either way that Kikoho uses life force, but if it does, then Vegeta's attack should be say, 50,000x or more stronger than himself. Where did I get that number? Kikoho, 10,000x stronger than self, five shots to ko Tien. Final blast used all the power in one shot, and so should be at least 5x stronger than that.

gad_is_here · 07-28-2008

I thought we all agreed that it has an effect on your lifespan

Dupe of USSJed · 07-28-2008

I didn't agree to that, I said it could possibly be the answer.

Regardless, Hero, if Kikoho does use lifeforce you need to explain to me why Vegeta's explosion did not annilate buu and half the fucking universe.

Hero · 07-28-2008

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Originally Posted by USSJed

Regardless, Hero, if Kikoho does use lifeforce you need to explain to me why Vegeta's explosion did not annilate buu and half the fucking universe.

?? What does that have to do with it? Anyways, Vegeta simply concentrated the radius of the explosion and made it smaller, that's all, just like he could narrow the width of his final flash.

Dupe of USSJed · 07-28-2008

Then that means my question of why the hell was Buu not annilated into nothing doubly important. Your saying, that Vegeta SSJ2 x(anywhere from 1,000 to 50,000) is not strong enough to kill Majin Buu.

07-27-2008	#47 (permalink)
Tyrant (22) Super Saiyan 3 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,224 Blog Entries: 3 Rep Power: 337	Re: Kikoho Argument- Life Force OK, so I can agree with the 20x in 6 days thing being ridiculous (even though there are more ridiculous things like massive, random zenkais), but he must have gotten 20x at some point. Tien is not the kind of person to slack off. __________________ Goku will FUCK your Shit UP!

07-27-2008	#51 (permalink)
Tyrant (22) Super Saiyan 3 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,224 Blog Entries: 3 Rep Power: 337	Re: Kikoho Argument- Life Force Whatever, this is turning into an opinion argument and nobody wins in cases like these. __________________ Goku will FUCK your Shit UP!

07-27-2008	#52 (permalink)
Hero (24) Super Saiyan 4 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: USA Posts: 3,166 Rep Power: 135	Re: Kikoho Argument- Life Force Yeah I've been in this argument since I joined this site...and it still hasn't gone anywhere =/(granted, I haven't been here for long) __________________ Top 5 Manga: 1. Dragon Ball 2. One Piece 3. Hunter x Hunter 4. Vagabond 5. Hikaru No Go Dragon Ball/Z Power Levels

07-28-2008	#56 (permalink)
gad_is_here (23) Final Warrior Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: I go with the naked ladies[;)] Posts: 2,507 Blog Entries: 7 Rep Power: 77	Re: Kikoho Argument- Life Force I thought we all agreed that it has an effect on your lifespan __________________ Nobody's perfect and since I'm nobody... Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. Avoid fruits and nuts. You are what you eat. Jim Davis All true wisdom is found on T-shirts. Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.

07-28-2008	#57 (permalink)
Dupe of USSJed (28) Lord of Worlds Join Date: May 2008 Location: drawing. Im kinda the best drawer in my class , not to brag or anything Posts: 7,707 Rep Power: 202	Re: Kikoho Argument- Life Force I didn't agree to that, I said it could possibly be the answer. Regardless, Hero, if Kikoho does use lifeforce you need to explain to me why Vegeta's explosion did not annilate buu and half the fucking universe. __________________ DBZ RPG Accepting new entrants! Must be active every day, at some point between 10am and 6pm New Zealand Time(+13), and willing to take the RPG seriously. 9 out of 10 MFGers thing that Orancello is SSJJason. If you are one of the 1 in 10 that don't, copy this and put it in your sig. Accepted Character Races. Android(#8, can upgrade later), Alien(Custom), Bio Android(Cell type), Changeling(Frieza), Demon, Human, Kaioshin, Namekian. Others conditionally. No Saiyans and Hybrids, sorry.

07-28-2008	#59 (permalink)
Dupe of USSJed (28) Lord of Worlds Join Date: May 2008 Location: drawing. Im kinda the best drawer in my class , not to brag or anything Posts: 7,707 Rep Power: 202	Re: Kikoho Argument- Life Force Then that means my question of why the hell was Buu not annilated into nothing doubly important. Your saying, that Vegeta SSJ2 x(anywhere from 1,000 to 50,000) is not strong enough to kill Majin Buu. __________________ DBZ RPG Accepting new entrants! Must be active every day, at some point between 10am and 6pm New Zealand Time(+13), and willing to take the RPG seriously. 9 out of 10 MFGers thing that Orancello is SSJJason. If you are one of the 1 in 10 that don't, copy this and put it in your sig. Accepted Character Races. Android(#8, can upgrade later), Alien(Custom), Bio Android(Cell type), Changeling(Frieza), Demon, Human, Kaioshin, Namekian. Others conditionally. No Saiyans and Hybrids, sorry.