Kikoho Argument- Life Force - Page 3

Dupe of USSJed · 07-26-2008

He got turned to stone.

**Darkprince410** · 07-26-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by hero_764

Are you serious? You can't compare Vegeta's explosion to a Ki Ko Ho. Blowing yourself up is going to kill you because you have just blown up, not because you used too much ki. No one else in DB/Z has ever died from using a ki attack, Tien's is just special. The whole battery analogy has no support either. When Goku was completely beaten by Vegeta and taken to the hospital, he made no mention of his lifespan shortening or anything.

If you really believe that it's simply a ki attack then it would obviously mean that Tien was more powerful than Kamiccolo, which just isn't true

He didn't actually blow himself up though, he simply expelled every single ounce of ki in his body, which is why his body reverted to a stone-like material. An actual explosion would have torn his body apart, like Seru Stage 2's self-destruction did.

It's been suggested that the reason that Tenshinhan's Shin Ki Kou Hou was so powerful was because he had applied the basics of the Kaiou-ken to it, which he hinted at wanting to do when he was on Kaiou-sama's planet. He said to himself that he knew that he could never get as strong as Gokuu did using the same training methods he did, but that he planned to take the basics of Kaiou-sama's training style and merge it with his own style of fighting.

Tyrant · 07-26-2008

Tien's Tri Beam is a special kind of technique that increases his power dramatically and randomly, similiar to the spirit bomb. Imagine sacrificing your life to recieve an immense power boost for a short period of time. This is why Tien rarely used it and when he did, he damaged himself quite badly.

On the topic of how strong Tien is. There is nothing to suggest that a human has physical limits that are that low. There is nothing to suggest any physical limits at all. He stayed at Tier 2 (Goku and Piccolo Tier 1) for a very long time during Dragonball Z. This was when there was no concept of Super Saiyan, zenkais etc.

I remember USSJed did a in-depth breakdown of Tien's power level over the years, I'm going to try to give a simplifed version of it.

Goku increased his power by 20x in King Kai's training. Going by this, Tien's power should be approximately 36,000 during the captain ginyu saga.

1,800 X 20 = 36,000 (captain ginyu saga)

He then stayed for 2 more namekian years at King Kai's. What else is there to do except train? If we go by a very conservative 2x multiplier per year then that is approximately 1.4x (2 namekian years = 260 days, 365 days / 260 days = 2x / 1.4 = 1.4)

36,000 X 1.4 = 51,000 (end of Frieza Saga)

There was then a 2 year period between Frieza Saga and Trunks saga where we can assume he once again gets a conservative 2x increase. 2^2 = 4.

51,000 X 4 = 204,000 (end of trunks saga)

Three years till android saga. 2^3 = 8

204,000 X 8 = 1,600,000 (android saga)

Tien is in the low millions by the Android Saga.

Hero · 07-26-2008

36,000 by the ginyu saga? What? And where does the x2 multiplier come from?

Tyrant · 07-26-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by hero_764

36,000 by the ginyu saga? What? And where does the x2 multiplier come from?

Goku got a 20x increase from King Kai's training so I gave the same multiplier to Tien.

The 2x comes from other averaged multipliers. The Z Warriors roughly recieved 8x each in one year when training hard for the saiyans. Piccolo went from the 1.7 mil in the Frieza Saga to over 150 mil in the Android Saga in 3 years (that's 88x in 3 years). So 2x per year for Tien is quite conservative. Unless your suggesting it should be higher, because then I don't mind at all.

Dupe of USSJed · 07-26-2008

I personally think Tien got a bigger multiplier increase than Goku, based on the fact that he was there longer, and King Kai stated that they were going to train harder than Goku, but whatever.

Hero, it is a fact that Piccolo was able to increase his power level by 8.75x in one year. Therefore, if you want to argue that Tien was not able to increase by x2 in one year, you will need to find evidence to support that. The only confirmed year of training increase without special circumstances(such as King Kai) is Piccolo's 8.75x increase, therefore it is more accurate to assume that yearly training increases are whole number increases at a same sort of scale to that increase, rather than say, +20% per year or other pathetic increases.

Tyrant · 07-26-2008

Some people argue that after a certain point, your power just can't get any stronger until you recieve a massive zenkai or do something completely different like train under a new master or gravity training. Even so, Tien should not be below 1 million by the most conservative calculations.

Dupe of USSJed · 07-26-2008

They do have a point. Captain Ginyu is 120,000 and is considered the second strongest in the galaxy. I can see where they are coming from when they say they believe Tien to be under that. The way I see it, unless you get special training there are barriers that can take years to break. For example, until they trained with Kami, no Z Fighter broke the low hundreds mark. So I imagine that few aliens would break that barrier without special training. The same applies to breaking the 10,000 barrier without special training or a Zenkai, fusion etc.

Hero · 07-26-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frieza the Tyrant

Goku got a 20x increase from King Kai's training so I gave the same multiplier to Tien.

Yeah but that was after a half year of training(or somewhere around that). Tien had only been there for 6 days when the Captain Ginyu Saga happened.

Also, the thing that bugs me the most about this all, is that Tien only did self training for three years on normal standards. This hadn't happened since Dragon Ball, where he gained much less than a 2x increase per year of training(he gained around a 1.5x increase in 3 years). Now that his powerlevel is in the tens of thousands why would he suddenly gain more every year than he used to only be able to do in three years? Its also gonna be harder and harder for him to train hard after having done partner training with the other humans and done partner training(for some of the time) under 10x normal gravity with someone who was considered the greatest martial arts master at the time. It just doesn't seem plausible to me that he would be able to double his power every year.

Quote:

The only confirmed year of training increase without special circumstances(such as King Kai) is Piccolo's 8.75x increase

Partner training with someone as unstable as Gohan can be really effective. Like the others, he too trained for 6 months with a partner, and then trained on his own for 6 months. The only reason he ended up with a higher level is because he simply started at a higher level.

G-lord · 07-26-2008

Life force is a type of Ki. Life Force is called "Tai Ki", which is the Ki that is used to run your body for your entire life. Naturally, that is a LOT of energy. If you tap into your Tai Ki, you can gain incredible power, but at the cost of shortening your life to the point of death. This is a common concept in Japanese mysticism and Manga/Anime. YYH uses the same concept as DBZ does too.

The Kikoho is a forbidden technique for this very reason, because it can kill the user and is also incredibly destructive. I find this very funny though, because if the Crane Master is immortal (he can be killed, but will live forever if not killed) then he either has unlimited Tai Ki or Tai Ki regeneration. Either way, it makes him pretty powerful if he uses the Kikoho, as he may not need to worry about dying.

So yes, Life Force IS Ki, but it is NOT Aura. It is a Ki contained within your body (so it cannot be an Aura, unless tapped into) that the body uses to make it run for decades, even centuries, to come. It is like a seperate compartment of Ki that is seperated from your regular Ki.

gad_is_here · 07-26-2008

Tien is the only human that I think crossed 100,000

Tyrant · 07-27-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by hero_764

Yeah but that was after a half year of training(or somewhere around that). Tien had only been there for 6 days when the Captain Ginyu Saga happened.

Also, the thing that bugs me the most about this all, is that Tien only did self training for three years on normal standards. This hadn't happened since Dragon Ball, where he gained much less than a 2x increase per year of training(he gained around a 1.5x increase in 3 years). Now that his powerlevel is in the tens of thousands why would he suddenly gain more every year than he used to only be able to do in three years? Its also gonna be harder and harder for him to train hard after having done partner training with the other humans and done partner training(for some of the time) under 10x normal gravity with someone who was considered the greatest martial arts master at the time. It just doesn't seem plausible to me that he would be able to double his power every year.

[/b]Partner training with someone as unstable as Gohan can be really effective. Like the others, he too trained for 6 months with a partner, and then trained on his own for 6 months. The only reason he ended up with a higher level is because he simply started at a higher level.

As for the 6 days at King Kai's place thing, I think the solution is that you get the increase not by how long you spend there, but by completing the training. So whether or not somebody does the training in 6 days or 6 years they still get a 20x increase. But that's just my opinion.

Hero · 07-27-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frieza the Tyrant

As for the 6 days at King Kai's place thing, I think the solution is that you get the increase not by how long you spend there, but by completing the training. So whether or not somebody does the training in 6 days or 6 years they still get a 20x increase. But that's just my opinion.

Uhh...no...

Sorry sir but you are wrong.

You can't gain 20x your strength in 6 days. Sorry bud, even in Dragon Ball that's impossible. Not to mention he never said anything about having completed the training in those 6 daysAnd by your logic he wouldn't gain anymore for the other 230 days since he had already 'completed' the training.

Tyrant · 07-27-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by hero_764

Uhh...no...

Sorry sir but you are wrong.

You can't gain 20x your strength in 6 days. Sorry bud, even in Dragon Ball that's impossible. Not to mention he never said anything about having completed the training in those 6 daysAnd by your logic he wouldn't gain anymore for the other 230 days since he had already 'completed' the training.

Listen, things in Dragonball don't always make sense. The point is to try to find reasons to make sense of the confusion.

And just because he spent 6 days there doesn't mean he didn't get stronger. It all depends on how much you train. He caught bubbles and gregory before the start of the Frieza saga so he must have been much stronger.

Whether or not you agree with the 20x in 6 days thing, it's still very possible for Tien to be in the low millions (at the least).

Dupe of USSJed · 07-27-2008

Quote:

Partner training with someone as unstable as Gohan can be really effective. Like the others, he too trained for 6 months with a partner, and then trained on his own for 6 months. The only reason he ended up with a higher level is because he simply started at a higher level.

Am I the only one who thinks this contradicts what you said earlier. Anyway, the DB-DBZ training was not mentioned to be hard, meanwhile the Z Fighters trained harder than ever during the 3 year period.

07-26-2008	#31 (permalink)
Dupe of USSJed (28) Lord of Worlds Join Date: May 2008 Location: drawing. Im kinda the best drawer in my class , not to brag or anything Posts: 7,707 Rep Power: 202	Re: Kikoho Argument- Life Force He got turned to stone. __________________ DBZ RPG Accepting new entrants! Must be active every day, at some point between 10am and 6pm New Zealand Time(+13), and willing to take the RPG seriously. 9 out of 10 MFGers thing that Orancello is SSJJason. If you are one of the 1 in 10 that don't, copy this and put it in your sig. Accepted Character Races. Android(#8, can upgrade later), Alien(Custom), Bio Android(Cell type), Changeling(Frieza), Demon, Human, Kaioshin, Namekian. Others conditionally. No Saiyans and Hybrids, sorry.

07-26-2008	#33 (permalink)
Tyrant (22) Super Saiyan 3 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,224 Blog Entries: 3 Rep Power: 337	Re: Kikoho Argument- Life Force Tien's Tri Beam is a special kind of technique that increases his power dramatically and randomly, similiar to the spirit bomb. Imagine sacrificing your life to recieve an immense power boost for a short period of time. This is why Tien rarely used it and when he did, he damaged himself quite badly. On the topic of how strong Tien is. There is nothing to suggest that a human has physical limits that are that low. There is nothing to suggest any physical limits at all. He stayed at Tier 2 (Goku and Piccolo Tier 1) for a very long time during Dragonball Z. This was when there was no concept of Super Saiyan, zenkais etc. I remember USSJed did a in-depth breakdown of Tien's power level over the years, I'm going to try to give a simplifed version of it. Goku increased his power by 20x in King Kai's training. Going by this, Tien's power should be approximately 36,000 during the captain ginyu saga. 1,800 X 20 = 36,000 (captain ginyu saga) He then stayed for 2 more namekian years at King Kai's. What else is there to do except train? If we go by a very conservative 2x multiplier per year then that is approximately 1.4x (2 namekian years = 260 days, 365 days / 260 days = 2x / 1.4 = 1.4) 36,000 X 1.4 = 51,000 (end of Frieza Saga) There was then a 2 year period between Frieza Saga and Trunks saga where we can assume he once again gets a conservative 2x increase. 2^2 = 4. 51,000 X 4 = 204,000 (end of trunks saga) Three years till android saga. 2^3 = 8 204,000 X 8 = 1,600,000 (android saga) Tien is in the low millions by the Android Saga. __________________ Goku will FUCK your Shit UP!

07-26-2008	#34 (permalink)
Hero (24) Super Saiyan 4 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: USA Posts: 3,166 Rep Power: 135	Re: Kikoho Argument- Life Force 36,000 by the ginyu saga? What? And where does the x2 multiplier come from? __________________ Top 5 Manga: 1. Dragon Ball 2. One Piece 3. Hunter x Hunter 4. Vagabond 5. Hikaru No Go Dragon Ball/Z Power Levels

07-26-2008	#36 (permalink)
Dupe of USSJed (28) Lord of Worlds Join Date: May 2008 Location: drawing. Im kinda the best drawer in my class , not to brag or anything Posts: 7,707 Rep Power: 202	Re: Kikoho Argument- Life Force I personally think Tien got a bigger multiplier increase than Goku, based on the fact that he was there longer, and King Kai stated that they were going to train harder than Goku, but whatever. Hero, it is a fact that Piccolo was able to increase his power level by 8.75x in one year. Therefore, if you want to argue that Tien was not able to increase by x2 in one year, you will need to find evidence to support that. The only confirmed year of training increase without special circumstances(such as King Kai) is Piccolo's 8.75x increase, therefore it is more accurate to assume that yearly training increases are whole number increases at a same sort of scale to that increase, rather than say, +20% per year or other pathetic increases. __________________ DBZ RPG Accepting new entrants! Must be active every day, at some point between 10am and 6pm New Zealand Time(+13), and willing to take the RPG seriously. 9 out of 10 MFGers thing that Orancello is SSJJason. If you are one of the 1 in 10 that don't, copy this and put it in your sig. Accepted Character Races. Android(#8, can upgrade later), Alien(Custom), Bio Android(Cell type), Changeling(Frieza), Demon, Human, Kaioshin, Namekian. Others conditionally. No Saiyans and Hybrids, sorry.

07-26-2008	#37 (permalink)
Tyrant (22) Super Saiyan 3 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,224 Blog Entries: 3 Rep Power: 337	Re: Kikoho Argument- Life Force Some people argue that after a certain point, your power just can't get any stronger until you recieve a massive zenkai or do something completely different like train under a new master or gravity training. Even so, Tien should not be below 1 million by the most conservative calculations. __________________ Goku will FUCK your Shit UP!

07-26-2008	#38 (permalink)
Dupe of USSJed (28) Lord of Worlds Join Date: May 2008 Location: drawing. Im kinda the best drawer in my class , not to brag or anything Posts: 7,707 Rep Power: 202	Re: Kikoho Argument- Life Force They do have a point. Captain Ginyu is 120,000 and is considered the second strongest in the galaxy. I can see where they are coming from when they say they believe Tien to be under that. The way I see it, unless you get special training there are barriers that can take years to break. For example, until they trained with Kami, no Z Fighter broke the low hundreds mark. So I imagine that few aliens would break that barrier without special training. The same applies to breaking the 10,000 barrier without special training or a Zenkai, fusion etc. __________________ DBZ RPG Accepting new entrants! Must be active every day, at some point between 10am and 6pm New Zealand Time(+13), and willing to take the RPG seriously. 9 out of 10 MFGers thing that Orancello is SSJJason. If you are one of the 1 in 10 that don't, copy this and put it in your sig. Accepted Character Races. Android(#8, can upgrade later), Alien(Custom), Bio Android(Cell type), Changeling(Frieza), Demon, Human, Kaioshin, Namekian. Others conditionally. No Saiyans and Hybrids, sorry.

07-26-2008	#40 (permalink)
G-lord (14) Warrior of Namek Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 392 Rep Power: 5	Re: Kikoho Argument- Life Force Life force is a type of Ki. Life Force is called "Tai Ki", which is the Ki that is used to run your body for your entire life. Naturally, that is a LOT of energy. If you tap into your Tai Ki, you can gain incredible power, but at the cost of shortening your life to the point of death. This is a common concept in Japanese mysticism and Manga/Anime. YYH uses the same concept as DBZ does too. The Kikoho is a forbidden technique for this very reason, because it can kill the user and is also incredibly destructive. I find this very funny though, because if the Crane Master is immortal (he can be killed, but will live forever if not killed) then he either has unlimited Tai Ki or Tai Ki regeneration. Either way, it makes him pretty powerful if he uses the Kikoho, as he may not need to worry about dying. So yes, Life Force IS Ki, but it is NOT Aura. It is a Ki contained within your body (so it cannot be an Aura, unless tapped into) that the body uses to make it run for decades, even centuries, to come. It is like a seperate compartment of Ki that is seperated from your regular Ki. __________________ "Hail to the King, baby!"

07-26-2008	#41 (permalink)
gad_is_here (23) Final Warrior Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: I go with the naked ladies[;)] Posts: 2,507 Blog Entries: 7 Rep Power: 77	Re: Kikoho Argument- Life Force Tien is the only human that I think crossed 100,000 __________________ Nobody's perfect and since I'm nobody... Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. Avoid fruits and nuts. You are what you eat. Jim Davis All true wisdom is found on T-shirts. Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.