Dupe of USSJed

I consider that opinion, not evidence.

And actually, it's not thinking too much, the "Is Gotenks faster than light" topic was what I would call thinking too much.

And the number doesn't matter, I just want to see that extra '0' on Tien: 100,000, my mission here is more about dispelling antiqucated and obsolete thinking, rather than to prove a particular number. Plus sadly, there has been a notable lack of thought provoking topics in this forum lately.

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Madness

No, I would consider trying to rationalise insignificant parts of the series thinking too much. Tien is insignificant. *Gets stoned to death*

It is shown that the Kikoho is able to produce higher amounts of power than the user. The Shin Kikoho is more again. End of, problem solved. There doesn't need to be a multiplier, just an acceptance that Tien was used for plot purposes when he stopped Buu.

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Dupe of USSJed

Not the "Plot Device" argument again. Simply put, plot device makes something canonically possible in that universe. And I'm talking about the Cell thing, I don't know or care much about the Buu thing.

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gad_is_here

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Deep Thought

Cell stated that Tien nearly died from preparing the Kikoho, and Tien really did die when he used it on Nappa. That should be proof enough that the Kikiho drains life force.

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gad_is_here

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Madness

Only after he'd gone through some degree of mastering it. It killed him straight away against Nappa.

Then again, he had lost his arm

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gad_is_here

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Hero

I already explained that the Neo Ki Ko Ho has no multiplier in the other thread. It just gets stronger and weaker as Toriyama pleases. First he couldn't even injure someone four times stronger than him, and died after one shot. Next he could knock down someone over even 100x stronger(if you actually had him in the millions), and still do it like 10 more times. And then it suddenly gains like 50x or higher power against Gotenks Buu. Simply put, the Ki Ko Ho is just a bad plot device, and there's nothing to suggest he needs to be immensly powerful to make his attack really powerful.

Secondly, this is DBZ. The only way someone had gotten past a million was either through a major hax zenkai or a fusion or training with someone many times stronger than yourself. Just because you work hard isn't going to give you the power to take on a SSJ..

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2. One Piece
3. Hunter x Hunter
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Dragon Ball/Z Power Levels

Dupe of USSJed

Plot device=Universal possibility. If thru a plot device Krillin can reach 1700 training with Kami, then that means that MOL any human can reach that sort of level training with Kami.

This is exactly what I am trying to dispell. Who says anywhere in the series that you can only exceed 1,000,000 in this way. And even if there is some kind of limiter, how do you know that the max you can reach without a "plot device" as you call it, is 1,000,000 and not 10,000,000 or 14,213,353?

So I have a perfectly plausible explanation about why the Kikoho kicks so much as at particular times, but everyone rejects it becauses its obviously impossible for Tien to be at that strength, stated nowhere by noone in the series, and goes for the "Plot Device" argument. People believe their unfounded assumptions override factual increases such as Piccolo's x8.75, and say "Oh no your wrong, even though we have a proven example of a just below x10 increase in a year, obviously the only amount you can increase is x0.05 per year, which means Tien could only reach 1,000,000 if he trained for a thousand years"

There is no such thing as a plot device.

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Darkprince410

Actually, as far as life force and ki, they are one and the same. The manga at no point says that Tenshinhan's Ki Kou Hou is fueled by anything apart from ki, and the entire basis that some people think that life force and ki are different (and that the Ki Kou Hou is fueled by life force) is when Kame-sen'nin explained the Ki Kou Hou in Dragonball. He said that using the Ki Kou Hou could possibly kill its user, or at least shorten his life span.

However, this doesn't indicate that they are different, because we've seen quite clearly in one situation that expelling an extremely massive amount of ki can kill the "emitter". I am referring to Ma-jin Bejiita's Ultimate Final Skill attack he employed as a desperation move on Fat Buu, whereupon he released all the ki he had in his body in a single concentrated explosion. Tenshinhan's Ki Kou Hou (and his Shin Ki Kou Hou) work on a similar, though more refined and less drastic of a system.

Picture the body as a battery, with ki in place of the electricity that you would find in one. Drawing out a little electricity from the battery won't tax it that much and can be restored (through recharging it in some method), much in the same way that normal ki derived functions (regular ki blasts, flying, etc) don't tax the body very much and can easily be replenished (resting, senzu beans, eating, etc). However, a massive drain on a battery can either run it dead or severely tax its charge, thus reducing its life span, and recharging it won't be 100% effective because it wouldn't be able to hold a charge as well. Likewise, a massive drain of the ki of an individual is going to either outright kill him, or severely weaken him and reduce his lifespan due to the damage caused by that loss of ki (since ki regulates all life functions, a massive drain is going to damage those functions due to its loss).

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MajinGogeta

That Explanation Is Very Well Stated...

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gad_is_here

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Dupe of USSJed

Thank you, now the only argument remaining is the "Teh Kikoho is a pushing attack which is why it could hold back someone 10,000x stronger than Tien" argument. I will rep you in Gad's place.

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Hero

Are you serious? You can't compare Vegeta's explosion to a Ki Ko Ho. Blowing yourself up is going to kill you because you have just blown up, not because you used too much ki. No one else in DB/Z has ever died from using a ki attack, Tien's is just special. The whole battery analogy has no support either. When Goku was completely beaten by Vegeta and taken to the hospital, he made no mention of his lifespan shortening or anything.

If you really believe that it's simply a ki attack then it would obviously mean that Tien was more powerful than Kamiccolo, which just isn't true

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Top 5 Manga:

1. Dragon Ball
2. One Piece
3. Hunter x Hunter
4. Vagabond
5. Hikaru No Go

Dragon Ball/Z Power Levels