JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 - Page 4

the predator · 06-17-2008

79 million? I doubt he trained as consistently as that I think at some point he took some time off and left it all to the saiyans and just trained moderately. Plus Age affects humans more than it does saiyans (no substantial proof of this just my belief hell Roshi is not that bad at 300 years come to think of it once humans surpass their human limitations (see Roshi's training of Goku and Krillin) I doubt age affects them much). If Tien did train that much I think he would've come up with a new attack besides the shinkikoho or hit SOME form of human powerup. But anyways I'd like to see his potential PL if trained for 21 years IN THE GRAVITRON. Can you do that for me? Cause I don't know what increase rate I should give him per year.

USSJed · 06-17-2008

It also assumes he does not max out at any particular power level limit.

the predator · 06-17-2008

I don't think there's any limit in DBZ the only time I've seen a limit is in Mystic Gohan and if his character kept developing I bet they'd have got around that one too. So you don't have to assume it. As I said before Master Roshi already pointed out to Kid Goku and Krillin that they had already surpassed human limitations.

Tyro · 06-17-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by USSJed

I did use the Daizenshuu, but using a year just makes Tien Stronger... and don't leave, sofar your the only one I have seen that can challenge my theory. And I rounded 268(or something) to 270, rounded Cell Games to Buu saga to 2600 days instead of 2604 days or something, etcetera.

If using one year just strengthens your theory, why not use it? You'd not only make Tenshinhan stronger, you'd be going by straight canonical fact.

Why round 265 to 270? That was how many days it was total. Rounding here seems like cheating.

hero_764 · 06-17-2008

Alright, I see this thread grew over night, anyways here we go.

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This is pretty ridiculous imo, Tien rivals Ginyu at the end of DBZ at most.

1) You're basing all of this on sustaining the same multiplier as A SAIYAN. Someone who's race is made for fighting, and have average power levels of around 2,000-7,000. Same with Piccolo, who's race has average power levels of around 3,000. Humans have an average power level of around 5(based on the farmer). Humans have limits, once they reach a certain amount of strength it becomes really hard to keep increasing their power level.

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Brown: Raditz=Top Class Warrior=1,200 to 1,500. There is no stated average Saiyan Power Level anywhere in the Manga

Green: Those PL's were all but certainly with potential unlocked. Krillin with Potential unlocked was 23,000.

Red: Same can be said for Saiyans, Namekians, Half Saiyans, and everyone else. The limits of a Human are never elabourated on. Also, if Humans are limited, Uub could possibly max out at 120,000 as you are implying. Hardly worth all the fuss Goku makes about him.
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2) Tien trained with King Kai for around 300 days. You really shouldn't give him the same multiplier as Goku, who a) had to endure more training to prepare for the kaioken and b) was a saiyan, and likely gained strength much, much faster.Even if you put that aside, once Tien is done with the first year, his multiplier should definetly drop. King Kai wasn't that strong, and eventually was unable to provide Tien with the proper training one he hit a certain level.
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Blue: Agreed. Tien's increase Could be lower. But we have no idea how much lower. That is why I kept it the same.

Purple: I do see what your getting at here, the same deal as how Kami could not increase the Z Fighters after 6 months with him, they had surpassed his training. BUT, we have no evidence whatsoever as to how high King Kai can get someone to.
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3) Besides Kami and King Kai, Tien did no other special training. He never used the ROSAT or a Gravitron. All he did was train on earth, which most likely did almost nothing for him after going through King Kai's training. The only reason Vegeta was so powerful by training on earth was because he used almost 500x gravity. Goku didn't increase so much, but he had piccolo and gohan to spar with. Piccolo could spar with a SSJ, so obviously his power level would increase greatly. The same can be said for Gohan. Tien trained a) by himself and b) on earth, under no special conditions
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Grey: Hence the 1.5x multiplier. And by this logic, Android Saga Goku would not be much stronger(if any) than Namek SSJ Goku, which I have not seen even once on a Power Level Chart.

Orange: Valid point, but theres no evidence to support it, only assumptions. Also, from what I remember, Goku's otherworld training consisted of normal gravity training with heavy weights on his arms. Little if any of Tien's training methods are elabourated on, but why would he even train at all if he does not increase in strength.

Red: I would consider training with Chaotzu to be superior to training with noone. If nothing else, he could throw rocks for him to dodge like Goten and Gohan.

As you can see Tien's power level<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<1,000,000

Not quite, but try again by all means

Brown: Raditz was a 3rd class Saiyan warrior(stated I think) at 1200. You're right that it was never stated in the manga(I was kind of going by the bardock movie so sorry about that) but if you look at Raditz and Nappa, Nappa being a saiyan elite, you can most likely get a good range for Saiyan power levels, since we never saw a 2nd class warrior and such.

Green: Maybe so, but remember when Guru was unlocking Dende's potential? They were acting like it was a big deal.

Red: Saiyans and Namekians have limits too, they're just higher. And Uub was not technically a human, he was a reincarnate of one of the strongest beings in the universe. Obviously his powers would excel that of a normal human.

Grey: I don't know what other people think, but I think that Goku got his biggest increases on Yaidrat, he said the training there was really good for him. But yes, for him to train on Earth wouldn't do much for him as well.

Orange: I don't know much about Goku's training in the otherworld, but didn't he meet a lot of Kais and stuff that obviously knew better methods of training? Tien was doing the same training on earth that he had done since before the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

Red: Chaoutzu was well below his power level by the trunks saga, sparring with him would be next to useless. And I hardly think dodging rocks is a good form of training. Maybe if you could throw them as fast as Gohan could. And Goten also probably sparred with a Super Saiyan Gohan, which would help his training drastically.

edit:

Quote:

I will recalculate the Tien increase soon. Hero, what do you think Tien should have increased by at King Kai's? I want to see if you are making an intelligent discussion, or if you will say "Oh he doubled his power in two years cuz he's only a human"

I don't like to do the multiplier thing, because its nearly impossible for someone to have sustained the same amount of training for long periods of time. I personally think he increased from about 2,000 to around 32,000. But yes, that is ridiculously compared to other people. Anywhere from 30,000 to 65,000 is acceptable for me.

So I guess x16 to x32, and if you wanna do this mathematically that's a x4 to x5.66 a year, but again, I don't like that someone should get a set multiplier for training, there's sooo many things that can affect the pace of the training.

Ullr · 06-17-2008

I think jed is right,i mean everytime z-senshi fight for a big battle their power levels increase a lot regardless how they train.Piccolo during those 3 years improved from 1 million to near what 150.000.000?It makes sense, probably tenshinhan and the others reached at least the 1 million,but i see them in the several millions.
I don't understand this theory about ginyu force.
They are minor characters and in the next saga usually z-heroes surpass minors characters easily.
All this discussion reminds me bleach, before hueco mundo we had a lot of fans saying
there is no way captains could fight and beat espadas,but look what happened.
Plus if non sayans had a pl limit which is not ever stated in dragon ball (it is exactly the opposite)how could tenshinhan's body sustain such a powerlevel when he performed shin kikoho against cell.
For the record there is a bandai japanese collection with manga powerlevels and some guesses made by them i believe who gives tenshinhan a powerlevel of 75.000.000.
Honestly i cannot imagine goku making a fusion with tien if he is out of the millions.
That's my opinion,however jed proved it is possible and likely for tien to reach the several millions.

It is a coincidence that the same guys who said goku ssj with 150.000.000 was impossible are the same who refuse to admit tien and the others could achieve the millions.At the time they believed in the 15.000.000 for ssj goku.
Why people give credit to daizenshuu?I imagine because toriyama manga team wrote the book under akira supervision.Toriyama even wrote some parts and approved them for release.Daizenshuu 4 evens says after freeza saga all the z-senshis increase their pl's very quickly.In namek krillin was behind gohan only 1000 units and gohan was the best.
By the way a translator from mangahelpers told me buutenks said tien was pretty strong in the original japanese manga.Is this translation accurate? i would like to have a second opinion about this translation.

hero_764 · 06-17-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ullr

I think jed is right,i mean everytime z-senshi fight for a big battle their power levels increase a lot regardless how they train.Piccolo during those 3 years improved from 1 million to near what 150.000.000?It makes sense, probably tenshinhan and the others reached at least the 1 million,but i see them in the several millions.
I don't understand this theory about ginyu force.
They are minor characters and in the next saga usually z-heroes surpass minors characters easily.
All this discussion reminds me bleach, before hueco mundo we had a lot of fans saying
there is no way captains could fight and beat espadas,but look what happened.
Plus if non sayans had a pl limit which is not ever stated in dragon ball (it is exactly the opposite)how could tenshinhan's body sustain such a powerlevel when he performed shin kikoho against cell.
For the record there is a bandai japanese collection with manga powerlevels and some guesses made by them i believe who gives tenshinhan a powerlevel of 75.000.000.
Honestly i cannot imagine goku making a fusion with tien if he is out of the millions.
That's my opinion,however jed proved it is possible and likely for tien to reach the several millions.

It is a coincidence that the same guys who said goku ssj with 150.000.000 was impossible are the same who refuse to admit tien and the others could achieve the millions.At the time they believed in the 15.000.000 for ssj goku.
Why people give credit to daizenshuu?I imagine because toriyama manga team wrote the book under akira supervision.Toriyama even wrote some parts and approved them for release.Daizenshuu 4 evens says after freeza saga all the z-senshis increase their pl's very quickly.In namek krillin was behind gohan only 1000 units and gohan was the best.
By the way a translator from mangahelpers told me buutenks said tien was pretty strong in the original japanese manga.Is this translation accurate? i would like to have a second opinion about this translation.

1) Your post is very difficult to read.

2) Piccolo gained so much power likely because he did training with Goku and Gohan together during the 3 years before the Android Saga(at least that's what I remember reading, I'll have to check that later) and sparring with a SSJ>>>>sparring with chaotzu.

3) I don't have SSJ Goku at 15,000,000 but I still think Tien was well under a million :P

4) I've never read the Daizenshuu

5) The Ginyu Force were not minor characters. Captain Ginyu was a main villain, they had their saga, that makes them more than just "minor characters"

Ullr · 06-17-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by hero_764

1) Your post is very difficult to read.

2) Piccolo gained so much power likely because he did training with Goku and Gohan together during the 3 years before the Android Saga(at least that's what I remember reading, I'll have to check that later) and sparring with a SSJ>>>>sparring with chaotzu.

3) I don't have SSJ Goku at 15,000,000 but I still think Tien was well under a million :P

4) I've never read the Daizenshuu

5) The Ginyu Force were not minor characters. Captain Ginyu was a main villain, they had their saga, that makes them more than just "minor characters"

Piccolo could not spar with a ssj, base goku was stronger than piccolo.
Maybe you should read daizenshuu then.

Many times warriors trained alone and made awesome progresses.
Daizennhuu 4 states all the z-warriors improved very quickly,after freeza saga that is the reason why toriyama and his staff abandoned pl's.
spar is not a sine qua non condition to become strong.
Goku trained alone several times.
For me the main thing to improve is a big battle.
Everytime these guys train for something they improve a lot.

Ginyu force had their saga?They fought a little,but the main villain in namek saga was freeza not ginyu force.In the end all the z-senshi are heroes and ginyu force were freeza's lackeys.
Piccolo also warn them to not come for the androids saga if they couldn't achieve a decent pl,coz the androids would be stronger than freeza.
Look i will let this to jed,coz i agree with him and
mathematically it is posssible.
Plus, i don't understand how tien could survive a kick from buutenks when reeccom almost killed krillin.

Evil Vegeta · 06-17-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by the predator

They did have to increase their power because they assumed that they could get a part in the fight against Frieza. And for all we know Tien could've started developing the shinkikoho there. Correct me if I'm wrong but King Kai said something about training on his planet is equivalent to training on earth for thousands of years. So you think that if Tien- with just Kami's training could improve from let's say 250 to around 1500 in a year then he couldn't increase his rate by at least 1.2x at 10 times normal gravity.

Kaio specifically told Piccolo that he wouldn't allow him to go against Freeza. If he told the strongest one that, then none of them believe they're going to take Freeza on, and they don't even imply that they are preparing for the battle. Kaio mentioned the 1000 yrs of training to Goku, which doesn't exactly mean everyone training on the planet would get that much out of it. That was just a general quote.

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It is useless to compare the rate of training between Goku and Tien or Goku and Vegeta. To the second comment in bold: Vegeta may have trained MORE than Goku but maybe not as efficiently, I think Goku knows how to train better than Vegeta as do Piccolo and Tien but Vegeta trained in the gravitron.

There's no way for anyone to know how efficiently someone trains or doesn't train. I agree that Goku trained more efficiently then Vegeta, but if we can say that, we can also say Goku's training on Kaio's was more efficient then Tien's more difficult training on Kaio's, right?

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Tienshinhan saga: Goku and Tien are equals

Tien said Goku was stronger then him, though. Even if they were equal, Goku was still the better of the two.

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King Piccolo saga: Goku is better through zenkai

You mean the Super God Water, right?

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Piccolo Jr saga: Goku is better through previous zenkai and Kami's training Tien trains alone

Tien trained with Roshi if I remember, which is why he was considered a traitor by Tao. Even so, Goku was training in reading chi movement, and other skills, not just his increase in power.

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Vegeta saga: Goku gets King Kaio training while Tien trains at Kami, also Goku learns Kaioken

Yes.

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Frieza saga: Goku transforms SSJ and blows all chance of Tien ever catching up to him + major zenkai

Piccolo sure got up there, or not far from the power of a SSJ without those abilities.

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We don't know the story behind this one (for all we know it was Tien who refused to learn it)

Piccolo said that Kaio never mentioned anything about the Spirit Bomb. Why would Tien refuse to learn an attack when he states he wanted to master the essentials of Kaio's skills?

Quote:

So by saying that Goku improves more you're not exactly right. He does improve more because he gets stronger after every battle not necessarily because his training is more efficient. I'd really like to see Tien after a nice year or two training in the gravitron AND a post-RoSaT but that is another matter entirely.

If you believe Tien's training is more efficient then Vegeta's, then I can consider Goku's training more effective then Tien's. Too bad we'll never know how powerful Tien would be in the rosat, since he believed it would've been useless to try.

There's no such thing as a consistent increase. All of it varies depending on the training, or whatever they're doing at that point.

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Piccolo could not spar with a ssj, base goku was stronger than piccolo.

Yes, he can. It's actually shown in the manga; go look at Tyro's link on the first page.

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Piccolo also warn them to not come for the androids saga if they couldn't achieve a decent pl,coz the androids would be stronger than freeza.

What exactly is a decent power level for battling an enemy stronger then Freeza? A power level beyond the SSJ level is what. None of the humans could ever hope to achieve a level like that.

Tyro · 06-17-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ullr

Piccolo could not spar with a ssj, base goku was stronger than piccolo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyro

Click.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyro

Reading. Because it powers the internet.

This message is now two characters or longer.

Ullr · 06-17-2008

Sorry one last thing.
Piccolo and gohan are fighting together against ssj,but if base goku had 3 millions and piccolo in namek 1 million,how could piccolo spar with a ssj?
About goku tien,well in the japanese manga tien said goku was stronger without weights.But goku was the better man no doubt.

Evil Vegeta · 06-17-2008

Piccolo was stated to be training "fiercely" before Freeza arrived. His power level would be above his power when he fought Freeza. Piccolo could've lost many battles against SSJ Goku, but his power would still continue to increase.

hero_764 · 06-17-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ullr

Piccolo could not spar with a ssj, base goku was stronger than piccolo.
Maybe you should read daizenshuu then.

Many times warriors trained alone and made awesome progresses.
Daizennhuu 4 states all the z-warriors improved very quickly,after freeza saga that is the reason why toriyama and his staff abandoned pl's.
spar is not a sine qua non condition to become strong.
Goku trained alone several times.
For me the main thing to improve is a big battle.
Everytime these guys train for something they improve a lot.

Ginyu force had their saga?They fought a little,but the main villain in namek saga was freeza not ginyu force.In the end all the z-senshi are heroes and ginyu force were freeza's lackeys.
Piccolo also warn them to not come for the androids saga if they couldn't achieve a decent pl,coz the androids would be stronger than freeza.
Look i will let this to jed,coz i agree with him and
mathematically it is posssible.
Plus, i don't understand how tien could survive a kick from buutenks when reeccom almost killed krillin.

1) Daizenshuu is known to be incorrect. By the time Akira approved it he admitted to have forgotten all the pls had he written out. Don't believe me? Look at the pls he had for Goku/Freeza. Goku SSJ: 150,000,000 and Freeza 100%: 120,000,000. That's larger than the difference between Vegeta and Zarbon.

2) The Ginyu force were main characters(or at least captain ginyu was). Frieza's lackeys? The same could be said for Vegeta/Nappa/Raditz but you aren't calling them minor characters.

3) Piccolo weaker than base goku? Maybe at first, but by the android saga Piccolo>>>>>>Base Goku.

Quote:

Everytime these guys train for something they improve a lot.

Not the humans, after the Ginyu saga they were pretty much useless(save for tien's ki ko ho to hold cell form 2 back)

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spar is not a sine qua non condition to become strong.

What?

Quote:

Plus, i don't understand how tien could survive a kick from buutenks when reeccom almost killed krillin.

Uh...maybe because a)Tien>Krillin and b) Buutenks wasn't putting all his power behind that kick?

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Goku trained alone several times.

Uhh...no not really.

Let's go all the way back to dragon ball:

1) Trained with Grandpa Gohan
2) Trained with Roshi
3) Trained with Korin
4) Trained with Kami
5) Trained on his own a bit in the gap between DB and DBZ, but had a very very small pl increase
6) Trained with King Kai
7) Trained under 100x normal gravity
8) Trained with powerful master on Yaidrat
9) Trained in the other world with people like Pikkon to spar, many kais
10) Trained with Uub.

=/

the predator · 06-17-2008

Goku trained alone in a period of 3 years as well sometime between budokais. I think it was after the red ribbon saga.

Anyways I've made my point to you hero, before I'm not going to repeat myself. All I know is that it seems kind of ridiculous to assume that Tien's shin kikoho would amplify his ablities THAT much if he was at the low level you guys are saying he is. Very unlikely. The kikoho amplified his strength by what 4 tops? And Shin Kikoho is supposed to exceed 8000?

1000, 000 or not that still would be a grand feat.

The Daizenhuu (mispell) may not be accurate but it is still not THAT far off from the real PL and there Tien more than surpasses the 1000,000 mark

06-17-2008	#46 (permalink)
the predator (20) Super Saiyan 2 Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,277 Rep Power: 6	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 79 million? I doubt he trained as consistently as that I think at some point he took some time off and left it all to the saiyans and just trained moderately. Plus Age affects humans more than it does saiyans (no substantial proof of this just my belief hell Roshi is not that bad at 300 years come to think of it once humans surpass their human limitations (see Roshi's training of Goku and Krillin) I doubt age affects them much). If Tien did train that much I think he would've come up with a new attack besides the shinkikoho or hit SOME form of human powerup. But anyways I'd like to see his potential PL if trained for 21 years IN THE GRAVITRON. Can you do that for me? Cause I don't know what increase rate I should give him per year.

06-17-2008	#47 (permalink)
USSJed (25) Kami of Earth Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 4,017 Rep Power: 29	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 It also assumes he does not max out at any particular power level limit.

06-17-2008	#48 (permalink)
the predator (20) Super Saiyan 2 Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,277 Rep Power: 6	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 I don't think there's any limit in DBZ the only time I've seen a limit is in Mystic Gohan and if his character kept developing I bet they'd have got around that one too. So you don't have to assume it. As I said before Master Roshi already pointed out to Kid Goku and Krillin that they had already surpassed human limitations.

06-17-2008	#51 (permalink)
Ullr (2) Farmer w/Shotgun Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 14 Rep Power: 0	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 I think jed is right,i mean everytime z-senshi fight for a big battle their power levels increase a lot regardless how they train.Piccolo during those 3 years improved from 1 million to near what 150.000.000?It makes sense, probably tenshinhan and the others reached at least the 1 million,but i see them in the several millions. I don't understand this theory about ginyu force. They are minor characters and in the next saga usually z-heroes surpass minors characters easily. All this discussion reminds me bleach, before hueco mundo we had a lot of fans saying there is no way captains could fight and beat espadas,but look what happened. Plus if non sayans had a pl limit which is not ever stated in dragon ball (it is exactly the opposite)how could tenshinhan's body sustain such a powerlevel when he performed shin kikoho against cell. For the record there is a bandai japanese collection with manga powerlevels and some guesses made by them i believe who gives tenshinhan a powerlevel of 75.000.000. Honestly i cannot imagine goku making a fusion with tien if he is out of the millions. That's my opinion,however jed proved it is possible and likely for tien to reach the several millions. It is a coincidence that the same guys who said goku ssj with 150.000.000 was impossible are the same who refuse to admit tien and the others could achieve the millions.At the time they believed in the 15.000.000 for ssj goku. Why people give credit to daizenshuu?I imagine because toriyama manga team wrote the book under akira supervision.Toriyama even wrote some parts and approved them for release.Daizenshuu 4 evens says after freeza saga all the z-senshis increase their pl's very quickly.In namek krillin was behind gohan only 1000 units and gohan was the best. By the way a translator from mangahelpers told me buutenks said tien was pretty strong in the original japanese manga.Is this translation accurate? i would like to have a second opinion about this translation.

06-17-2008	#56 (permalink)
Ullr (2) Farmer w/Shotgun Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 14 Rep Power: 0	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 Sorry one last thing. Piccolo and gohan are fighting together against ssj,but if base goku had 3 millions and piccolo in namek 1 million,how could piccolo spar with a ssj? About goku tien,well in the japanese manga tien said goku was stronger without weights.But goku was the better man no doubt.

06-17-2008	#59 (permalink)
the predator (20) Super Saiyan 2 Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,277 Rep Power: 6	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 Goku trained alone in a period of 3 years as well sometime between budokais. I think it was after the red ribbon saga. Anyways I've made my point to you hero, before I'm not going to repeat myself. All I know is that it seems kind of ridiculous to assume that Tien's shin kikoho would amplify his ablities THAT much if he was at the low level you guys are saying he is. Very unlikely. The kikoho amplified his strength by what 4 tops? And Shin Kikoho is supposed to exceed 8000? 1000, 000 or not that still would be a grand feat. The Daizenhuu (mispell) may not be accurate but it is still not THAT far off from the real PL and there Tien more than surpasses the 1000,000 mark

06-17-2008	#60 (permalink)
hero_764 (18) Artificial Human Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 955 Rep Power: 13	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000