Dupe of USSJed

Yep, we know that, because that's what Toriyama wrote into the story. You can call it a plot device, but also Goku's hair should not stand up like that, that is a plot device also. Theres no such thing as a plot device. If it happens in the Manga, then in the Dragon Ball Universe it is possible. Tien went from 250-1830 in a year, which was more than Goku in his whole life. It happened, therefore it is possible for humans to increase like that. Don't just yell "Plot device" at it and ignore it.

I will recalculate the Tien increase soon. Hero, what do you think Tien should have increased by at King Kai's? I want to see if you are making an intelligent discussion, or if you will say "Oh he doubled his power in two years cuz he's only a human"

Evil Vegeta

Goku trained under the same guy for three yrs and didn't even receive an increase close to that, and trained four yrs after that and didn't increase much. Basically, when going by that notion, Tien should be able to be up there with Piccolo & Goku, since he can receive better increases then both of them. Not just him, but Yamcha & Krillin as well. It happened in the manga, but how often is the question?

I think Tien was around 12-16,000 when he was finished training.

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Dupe of USSJed

I want to get this straight, what did you base that number on exactly?

Evil Vegeta

Tien supposedly havin more difficult training then Goku, and actually believing Tien could get slightly more of an increase then Piccolo could in only six days. Is Tien's power supposed to be like 30,000 after Kaio's training? We don't see the training, so we don't know what his increase can be.

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Dupe of USSJed

Would it be wrong of me to assume that Tien's apparantly harder training then Goku, might give him an increase that rivals that of Goku, considering he is a human and therefore would increase slower?

Evil Vegeta

No, I'm not going to say it's wrong. But if Tien's increase exceed's 20x from his training, then Yamcha & Chaitzu are going to be right there as well. In fact, after havin no problem with the 10x gravity for awhile, since he's much stronger then Goku was when he arrived, why is his power gains somehow rivaling Goku's at that point? Unless you're going by the notion of Goku needing to learn new skills, and increase his power, while Tien could focus on his power?

Tien even states before he started to train, that he could never hope to surpass Goku. So his increases don't have to rival Goku's at all. Not to mention, he's not shown with any kind of weights within his training like Goku did. That alone is enough for us to know there's a difference in their increases.

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Dupe of USSJed

With that logic in mind Tien would never exceed 8,000. And perhaps he did not?

Exactly.

Did you not consider that perhaps being weighted is part of King Kai's training? Also, King Kai said that the humans were going to train harder than Goku. Which, going on story logic, means they did.

Is any "Maximum" PL given or implied about how far King Kai could get someone? Information like that would be plenty helpful.

Evil Vegeta

Actually, that wasn't what I was tryin to imply at all. It could simply mean, while Tien is training, he's not pushing himself to be greater then Goku anymore; he's just going to train enough to hopefully avoid another humiliating defeat as he stated.


Kaio stated that they want tougher training then Goku, that's exactly what he said. In the title portion of the manga, Yamcha is shown chasing Bubbles with no weights on, so they could've very well been training without them. Piccolo is the only one shown with them, and everytime we see the others, they have no weights. Goku was using weights simply because they were his, Kaio never used any weights of his own for Goku's training.

None of that was ever stated. We know Goku's power exceeded 8,000 after training, and the general consensus on Piccolo, is that he was around 10,000 if not more.

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Dupe of USSJed

So do you think that Tien, Yamcha, and Chaotzu went to King Kai and said "Yo KK, we want to train harder than Goku"

And then proceeded to not train as hard as him?

gad_is_here

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Dupe of USSJed

.... not the plot device argument again....

Alright Gad, while your here, what do you think concerning Tien's increase with King Kai?

Evil Vegeta

I want to know how their training can be more difficult when they don't even have to master any new skills and increase their power like Goku did? If anything, that's more difficult then anything they did. Goku even stated that his new training would make their more difficult training seem like nothin. It's also not like they saw his actual training, and since we didn't see them train, we can't determine if they did, since Kaio or none of them ever alluded actually havin more effective training then Goku.

Goku even stated that Vegeta trained more intense them himself, yet a burst of his SSJ2 power was enough for Vegeta to realize he couldn't even compare to his power. If anything, this shouldn't that significant since he had more difficult training then Goku. So if the humans all received more difficult training then Goku, that automatically means they're going to increase like 8-10x more then Goku did because they said such? I don't think so.

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Dupe of USSJed

No, I was thinking more along the lines of x1.2 which would cancel out the increase Goku gets from being a Saiyan in comparison to them. The advantage of that is, is that we can then use the stated increase of Goku at King Kai's for this argument, which is far better than using assumptions. I need to find out how high people reckon Tien was after King Kai's training. I guess I will run a poll and see what comes of it.

Edit: Don't forget Tien had Chaotzu and Yamcha to train with for alot of the time.

the predator

They did have to increase their power because they assumed that they could get a part in the fight against Frieza. And for all we know Tien could've started developing the shinkikoho there. Correct me if I'm wrong but King Kai said something about training on his planet is equivalent to training on earth for thousands of years. So you think that if Tien- with just Kami's training could improve from let's say 250 to around 1500 in a year then he couldn't increase his rate by at least 1.2x at 10 times normal gravity.

It is useless to compare the rate of training between Goku and Tien or Goku and Vegeta. To the second comment in bold: Vegeta may have trained MORE than Goku but maybe not as efficiently, I think Goku knows how to train better than Vegeta as do Piccolo and Tien but Vegeta trained in the gravitron.

Frankly when you think about it if not for Zenkai and SSJ forms Tien might've actually caught up to Goku as crazy as it may sound but take a look:

Tienshinhan saga: Goku and Tien are equals

King Piccolo saga: Goku is better through zenkai

Piccolo Jr saga: Goku is better through previous zenkai and Kami's training Tien trains alone

Vegeta saga: Goku gets King Kaio training while Tien trains at Kami, also Goku learns Kaioken

Captain Ginyu saga: Goku is training at 100 times normal gravity while Tien is training at 10

Frieza saga: Goku transforms SSJ and blows all chance of Tien ever catching up to him + major zenkai

I think the ONLY substantial proof we have that Goku improves more than Tien w/o zenkai is the fact that King Kaio felt that Goku was the only person worthy of learning the Kaioken and the spirit bomb.

We don't know the story behind this one (for all we know it was Tien who refused to learn it)

So by saying that Goku improves more you're not exactly right. He does improve more because he gets stronger after every battle not necessarily because his training is more efficient. I'd really like to see Tien after a nice year or two training in the gravitron AND a post-RoSaT but that is another matter entirely.

However in Evil Vegeta's favor I think Goku's increase rate should be less since Goku could've potentially received a zenkai power-up after his battle with Raditz and if Tien's increase is lower than Goku's (which I doubt) than his increase rate should go down as well.

Dupe of USSJed

Lol, this is a good time to point out his theoretical 79 million PL at the end of DBZ, assuming he trained hard and ignoring the effect of age. Thats right, 79 million. Starting from 16,000 and getting 21 years to train at x1.5 per year.