JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 - Page 2

the predator · 06-16-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by hero_764

This is pretty ridiculous imo, Tien rivals Ginyu at the end of DBZ at most.

1) You're basing all of this on sustaining the same multiplier as A SAIYAN. Someone who's race is made for fighting, and have average power levels of around 2,000-7,000. Same with Piccolo, who's race has average power levels of around 3,000. Humans have an average power level of around 5(based on the farmer). Humans have limits, once they reach a certain amount of strength it becomes really hard to keep increasing their power level.

2) Tien trained with King Kai for around 300 days. You really shouldn't give him the same multiplier as Goku, who a) had to endure more training to prepare for the kaioken and b) was a saiyan, and likely gained strength much, much faster. Even if you put that aside, once Tien is done with the first year, his multiplier should definetly drop. King Kai wasn't that strong, and eventually was unable to provide Tien with the proper training one he hit a certain level.

3) Besides Kami and King Kai, Tien did no other special training. He never used the ROSAT or a Gravitron. All he did was train on earth, which most likely did almost nothing for him after going through King Kai's training. The only reason Vegeta was so powerful by training on earth was because he used almost 500x gravity. Goku didn't increase so much, but he had piccolo and gohan to spar with. Piccolo could spar with a SSJ, so obviously his power level would increase greatly. The same can be said for Gohan. Tien trained a) by himself and b) on earth, under no special conditions

As you can see Tien's power level<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<1,000,000

Explain how Tien became stronger than Raditz after a year's training at Kami's lookout if humans don't get that much stronger.

Evil Vegeta · 06-16-2008

Tien only got stronger then Raditz because of the plot device. Goku trained under Kami for three yrs and didn't even get anywhere near 1,000 in power. We know Goku's power gain is far more then Tien's, so that was what I stated above.

Tien was probably close to 1,000 after six month's of training udner Kami, and Goku was probably in the upper 300 power range only.

Remixxx · 06-16-2008

Yeah Yeah"plot device" what an excuse.....LETS ALSO NOT FORGETTT HE FACT THA GOTENKS BUU CALLED TIEN A LEGENDARY FIGHTER TOO !!!!!!!!!!

Evil Vegeta · 06-16-2008

You obviously didn't bother to address anything in the post, so whatever is all I can say to that.

Hero · 06-16-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by the predator

Explain how Tien became stronger than Raditz after a year's training at Kami's lookout if humans don't get that much stronger.

Uh...he wasn't at his limit yet maybe?

I didn't say that in the hundreds was the limit for humans. Guru said that Krillin, as a human, had the potential to increase over 10,000. So in the DBZ universe, humans could realistically get that high and still not be at their limit.

But to think that Tien would get over 1,000,000 and still not be at his limit is absurd.

And even if humans don't have limits, I already provided more evidence as to why he's well under a million.

the predator · 06-16-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Vegeta

Tien only got stronger then Raditz because of the plot device. Goku trained under Kami for three yrs and didn't even get anywhere near 1,000 in power. We know Goku's power gain is far more then Tien's, so that was what I stated above.

Tien was probably close to 1,000 after six month's of training udner Kami, and Goku was probably in the upper 300 power range only.

oh come on plot device? You're forgetting that while Goku trained 3 years at Kami's lookout Tien was also honing his skills and therefore Tien was stronger than Goku before Kami's training therefore let's say Goku trained for 3 years alone and then went to train with Kami for six months like the others did. His power increase would be much higher than theirs and would be stronger than when he was when fighting Raditz.

Evil Vegeta · 06-16-2008

Goku was stated to be training during the four years after the tourney, and his powerl level was only 416 after that. Tien was stated to be 250, which would likely increase if he began to fight.

Goku, after training under Kami for three yrs, and after training for four yrs before Raditz arrived wasn't more then 416 for his power; yet, Tien could go from around 250-1,600 with about six month's training, and you're going to tell me that's not a plot device? It's not just Tien, it's Krillin, who was stated to be 206, and Yamcha, who was stated to be 177. All of them got above, or around Raditz in power, and there's nothin that says Krillin or Yamcha trained. It was a plot device.

the predator · 06-16-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Vegeta

Goku was stated to be training during the four years after the tourney, and his powerl level was only 416 after that. Tien was stated to be 250, which would likely increase if he began to fight.

Goku, after training under Kami for three yrs, and after training for four yrs before Raditz arrived wasn't more then 416 for his power; yet, Tien could go from around 250-1,600 with about six month's training, and you're going to tell me that's not a plot device? It's not just Tien, it's Krillin, who was stated to be 206, and Yamcha, who was stated to be 177. All of them got above, or around Raditz in power. It was plot device.

Please! Goku trained for 4 years? Define 'train' Piccolo called him a slacker and Piccolo had also not been training that much since he trained more seriously in the year of the arrival of the saiyans than in the 4 years between DB and DBZ and if Goku trained for 4 years than so did Tien.

Evil Vegeta · 06-16-2008

Piccolo called Goku a slacker because he didn't develop any new attacks, like Piccolo had. Goku stated to he's been training a whole lot before they take on Raditz, or more accurately, when he's removing his weights. If Goku says he's been training a lot, he has been.

I never said Tien didn't train, but you still can't ignore Yamcha (177) somehow being above 1,000 that quickly, and Krillin (206) being above that as well. Neither were stated to be training.

the predator · 06-16-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Vegeta

Piccolo called Goku a slacker because he didn't develop any new attacks, like Piccolo had. Goku stated to he's been training a whole lot before they take on Raditz, or more accurately, when he's removing his weights. If Goku says he's been training a lot, he has been.

I never said Tien didn't train, but you still can't ignore Yamcha (177) somehow being above 1,000 that quickly, and Krillin (206) being above that as well. Neither were stated to be training.

Well neither were stated NOT to be training and besides they had each other to spar with at Kami's lookout while Goku had what? Mr. Popo?

Hero · 06-16-2008

Ok, it doesn't matter whether or not its a plot device. That's not what this topic is about.

Fact of the matter is Tien<<<1,000,000

Evil Vegeta · 06-16-2008

Actually, if Yamcha's power is only 177, it's very likely he did no training at all; Krillin could've been, though. Also; Mr. Popo was actually more powerful then Goku at that point, so sparring with him is a good thing. Goku also didn't train solely by sparring, as he mastered many other things as well.

Sparring doesn't really matter if you're doing it with someone many times weaker then you. Training alone has been shown to be pretty effective more times then not.

the predator · 06-16-2008

To evil vegeta:

Sparring doesn't really matter if you're doing it with someone many times weaker then you. Training alone has been shown to be pretty effective more times then not.[/quote]

I'd like to think Goku surpassed Mr.Popo at some point and sparring IS way better than training alone. Also Goku and Piccolo CAN'T have been training all that much. Goku said he had been training alot but that is when he considers he has a family and all that and Piccolo was also taking his time but when imminent danger arrived Piccolo turned the gear up a notch and started training a whole lot so Goku's four years of training mean nearly nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hero_764

This is pretty ridiculous imo, Tien rivals Ginyu at the end of DBZ at most.

1) You're basing all of this on sustaining the same multiplier as A SAIYAN. Someone who's race is made for fighting, and have average power levels of around 2,000-7,000. Same with Piccolo, who's race has average power levels of around 3,000. Humans have an average power level of around 5(based on the farmer). Humans have limits, once they reach a certain amount of strength it becomes really hard to keep increasing their power level.

2) Tien trained with King Kai for around 300 days. You really shouldn't give him the same multiplier as Goku, who a) had to endure more training to prepare for the kaioken and b) was a saiyan, and likely gained strength much, much faster. Even if you put that aside, once Tien is done with the first year, his multiplier should definetly drop. King Kai wasn't that strong, and eventually was unable to provide Tien with the proper training one he hit a certain level.

3) Besides Kami and King Kai, Tien did no other special training. He never used the ROSAT or a Gravitron. All he did was train on earth, which most likely did almost nothing for him after going through King Kai's training. The only reason Vegeta was so powerful by training on earth was because he used almost 500x gravity. Goku didn't increase so much, but he had piccolo and gohan to spar with. Piccolo could spar with a SSJ, so obviously his power level would increase greatly. The same can be said for Gohan. Tien trained a) by himself and b) on earth, under no special conditions

As you can see Tien's power level<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<1,000,000

1st thing if a base saiyan has an average PL of 3000 (not 7000 since those are the best of Saiyans) and a human has a PL of 5 is it so WRONG to assume that a human has reached 5000,000 when a saiyan at base level has gone over 3000,000,000. I think we've passed normal limits. ESPECIALLY when that Same saiyan was a low class warrior with a power level of 2.

I agree with you on your second reason, his multiplier should not be as much as Goku's but I don't think you're justified when you say King Kai didn't challenge him anymore. In the filler scenes he brought the Ginyu force to train the warriors and even though that's not a practical reason it can be an example of how King Kai COULD'VE spicened up the training. (and he must have had more spice to keep Tien and Chiaotsu from learning the Kaioken. I'd imagine Tien must have mentioned that at some point)

3rd how do you know Tien didn't train with them? (I'm sure I'm missing out on DBZ knowledge here if so my bad), In the anime (I don't know if its filler) he remarks he wouldn't mind sparring with Goku after hearing of what he has done to Frieza.

Dupe of USSJed · 06-17-2008

Kudos(and reps) to Predator for continuing this in my absense.

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Where are you getting ten months from? The manga clearly says one year passes after everyone is wished back to life before Freeza arrives.

I did use the Daizenshuu, but using a year just makes Tien Stronger... and don't leave, sofar your the only one I have seen that can challenge my theory. And I rounded 268(or something) to 270, rounded Cell Games to Buu saga to 2600 days instead of 2604 days or something, etcetera.

Quote:

This is pretty ridiculous imo, Tien rivals Ginyu at the end of DBZ at most.

1) You're basing all of this on sustaining the same multiplier as A SAIYAN. Someone who's race is made for fighting, and have average power levels of around 2,000-7,000. Same with Piccolo, who's race has average power levels of around 3,000. Humans have an average power level of around 5(based on the farmer). Humans have limits, once they reach a certain amount of strength it becomes really hard to keep increasing their power level.

___________________
Brown: Raditz=Top Class Warrior=1,200 to 1,500. There is no stated average Saiyan Power Level anywhere in the Manga

Green: Those PL's were all but certainly with potential unlocked. Krillin with Potential unlocked was 23,000.

Red: Same can be said for Saiyans, Namekians, Half Saiyans, and everyone else. The limits of a Human are never elabourated on. Also, if Humans are limited, Uub could possibly max out at 120,000 as you are implying. Hardly worth all the fuss Goku makes about him.
___________________________

2) Tien trained with King Kai for around 300 days. You really shouldn't give him the same multiplier as Goku, who a) had to endure more training to prepare for the kaioken and b) was a saiyan, and likely gained strength much, much faster.Even if you put that aside, once Tien is done with the first year, his multiplier should definetly drop. King Kai wasn't that strong, and eventually was unable to provide Tien with the proper training one he hit a certain level.
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Blue: Agreed. Tien's increase Could be lower. But we have no idea how much lower. That is why I kept it the same.

Purple: I do see what your getting at here, the same deal as how Kami could not increase the Z Fighters after 6 months with him, they had surpassed his training. BUT, we have no evidence whatsoever as to how high King Kai can get someone to.
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3) Besides Kami and King Kai, Tien did no other special training. He never used the ROSAT or a Gravitron. All he did was train on earth, which most likely did almost nothing for him after going through King Kai's training. The only reason Vegeta was so powerful by training on earth was because he used almost 500x gravity. Goku didn't increase so much, but he had piccolo and gohan to spar with. Piccolo could spar with a SSJ, so obviously his power level would increase greatly. The same can be said for Gohan. Tien trained a) by himself and b) on earth, under no special conditions
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Grey: Hence the 1.5x multiplier. And by this logic, Android Saga Goku would not be much stronger(if any) than Namek SSJ Goku, which I have not seen even once on a Power Level Chart.

Orange: Valid point, but theres no evidence to support it, only assumptions. Also, from what I remember, Goku's otherworld training consisted of normal gravity training with heavy weights on his arms. Little if any of Tien's training methods are elabourated on, but why would he even train at all if he does not increase in strength.

Red: I would consider training with Chaotzu to be superior to training with noone. If nothing else, he could throw rocks for him to dodge like Goten and Gohan.

As you can see Tien's power level<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<1,000,000

Not quite, but try again by all means

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Yeah Yeah"plot device" what an excuse.....LETS ALSO NOT FORGETTT HE FACT THA GOTENKS BUU CALLED TIEN A LEGENDARY FIGHTER TOO !!!!!!!!!!

Ok, that does support Tien being stronger than 1,000,000. Just think of it from Buu's perspective: To the left, Goku at 10,000,000 to the right, Piccolo at 8,000,000 in the center Tien at 120,000 <---Not Legendary

Quote:

It was a plot device

Thats a cop out answer to any argument and you know it. We are here to debate about if Tien could exceed 1,000,000 using what we know he is capable of in the Manga, not to shout "ITS A PLOT DEVICE !!!!!!!"

You could also say the plot device is that Humans can shoot ki blasts, that is not possible in our world, but in Dragon Universe it is: Answer, its a plot device.

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Fact of the matter is Tien<<<1,000,000

You have not proved that. Not even close. So don't spout nonsense about how it is factual that he is under 1,000,000

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Sparring doesn't really matter if you're doing it with someone many times weaker then you. Training alone has been shown to be pretty effective more times then not.

Sparring is not really useful with a much weaker opponent, as stated by Goku in the CoSaT with Gohan. Gohan would slow him down to begin with, and then improve him later.

06-16-2008	#18 (permalink)
Remixxx (24) Super Saiyan 4 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Planet Neptune Posts: 3,458 Rep Power: 70	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 Yeah Yeah"plot device" what an excuse.....LETS ALSO NOT FORGETTT HE FACT THA GOTENKS BUU CALLED TIEN A LEGENDARY FIGHTER TOO !!!!!!!!!! __________________

06-16-2008	#26 (permalink)
Hero (24) Super Saiyan 4 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: USA Posts: 3,166 Rep Power: 135	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 Ok, it doesn't matter whether or not its a plot device. That's not what this topic is about. Fact of the matter is Tien<<<1,000,000 __________________ Top 5 Manga: 1. Dragon Ball 2. One Piece 3. Hunter x Hunter 4. Vagabond 5. Hikaru No Go Dragon Ball/Z Power Levels