JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 - Page 13

uki1234 · 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Vegeta

What spar with base Trunks? You mean in movie #9? The strongest kienzan Krillin ever used, was the one against Freeza. He never used it again.

What makes you think that kienzan attack gets any higher multiplier than 1.5x ?

Evil Vegeta · 06-24-2008

I meant to say, Krillin's most "effective" kienzan.

the predator · 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Vegeta

What spar with base Trunks? You mean in movie #9? The strongest kienzan Krillin ever used, was the one against Freeza. He never used it again.

crap I misplaced the spar as after Trunks fought Frieza pft my bad. (that has been happening a lot lately, I need to rewatch dbz again lol)

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

Nope, I dont think you can be that sure. Goku knew kaioken, but never used it after his fight with Frieza, even in Cell games saga when MSSJ mutliplier was shown to be much lower than 20x(not to mention that by that time Goku ought to be able to do much more powerful kaioken because his base form's power increased greatly. So just because Akira likely put it behind, doesn't mean he didn't know how to do kaioken. I dont see any reason he wouldn't have learned it(He was even more powerful than Goku when Goku learned it, and Kaio-sama certainly said them about it).

When was that shown?

uki1234 · 06-24-2008

Lots of times, like kiri metar... soz I'm too tired to discuss it again.

Remixxx · 06-24-2008

Dragonball fans really do like to make up their minds with minor proofs..like kiri metar ...face expressions...training and so on

Dupe of USSJed · 06-25-2008

Quote:

Frankly it is the only evidence you have USSJed.

Whats with this whole "Frankly" thing. Don't talk down to me without good reason. Hell, I haven't the slightest clue what that post of yours is saying.

As far as the Tien Kaoken thing goes, all I said is that I believe it could be possible. I never said it was the case.

Quote:

Lots of times, like kiri metar...

Kiri meter proves nothing at all about the SSJ multiplier. Nothing. At. All.

Do you have other "Proof" besides this? Whats all these "lots of times" you are referring to?

uki1234 · 06-25-2008

On decreasing multiplier topic:

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chibi Kiriyama
I've pondered this a long time and come to the conclusion that it has to do with the mastery of the Super Saiyan level. When we first see the Super Saiyan level, it taps into Goku's reserves through the initial transformation. Goku makes no note of the inflicted damage on him before and for all intents and purposes is rejuvenated. The side effect is that the sheer power Goku is tapping into is humongous; hence, the reason why the transformation leaves such a restless feeling when simply tapped into and not fully controlled. I believe that the training and duration of usage effects the multiplier. The restless feeling is thrown away when the Saiyan makes the normal state and transformed state have less of a massive gap. By doing this, they can drop their aura completely and convert the remaining energy that would have been made to transform to power up as a Super Saiyan to the maximum extent. In this manner their auraless Super Saiyan form and normal state become synonymous. An example:

SS Goku on Namek: large difference from normal state but still requiring focus (in Goku's case, the focus righteous anger brings him) to maintain

SS Goku fighting Cell: small difference from normal state/ auraless Super Saiyan state only requiring effort to consolidate power in increments so as to conserve chi in 'half' and 'full' power states

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that the longer that a Saiyan seeks to rid themselves of Super Saiyan restlessness, the more the body tries to make the transformation less stressful and more effortless by making the amount of power they can multiply by limited while still allowing them to progress in power instead of stifling their ability. This is supported by the small multiplier (3 to 5) in the Boo Saga when the transformation is marginal in comparison to the Namek Saga (50) where it took concious effort at the sacrifice of chi and a restless feeling. This would also explain why despite Goku's training he still loses chi in SS2- if the Super Saiyan level is so marginal in power once mastered from the normal state and the needs of the body for more power so great, it may be that both forms are a response to the need in that they release the control of the body's restlessness to tap into former SS-size power with the more visible effect of unrestrained power. One could surmise that the only level that goes beyond the SS logic are the failed Super Saiyan forms and SS3, and both have a glancing flaw in this in that the amount of power tapped comes with a disadvantage that makes the extension of SS-size power useless for long-term fighting what with the muscle mass and/or chi drain.

What I mean by "lots of times" is similar to this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ixidor
1) the fact that piccolo was so strong as a ssj in the cyborg saga brings the question: would goku let piccolo become like 40x times stronger then his base level? Ok, i guess everyone agrees that piccolo surpassed his base power but with such magnitude? We are talking about goku and we all know he usually, even with his base level, is stronger then piccolo. So, it's my belief that goku's base level was not 40x or 50x times weaker then piccolo. Maybe 4x or 5x times weaker, but not that much.
2) after the cell games a base trunks send imperfect cell away during several miles with his base power and with just a kiai! This is rather impressive when imperfect cell stated that he was stronger then the cyborgs and that he had probably started absorbing thousands of people...
3) trunks and goten fight with c18. Even with his movements very limited it was showed that they were pretty close with c18. In fact if you notice, even if they could hardly move in that suit, c18's punches and blasts didn't make any damage to them even with his base level.
4) vegeta, goku and gohan's base level showed very developed in the boo saga. Vegeta stunned kaioshin with his base power when he blew up pui, implying that vegeta>kaioshin. Goku could keep up with yakon that was 3,75 times wekaer then his ssj, and even if people don't like it 3000 kilis was the max power from ssj goku, since he need to turn ssj2 to blow up yakon, stated by vegeta. Also, in this same fight gohan stated that he and goku could beat yakon without even using the ssj level, when goku lost his ssj the first time to feed yakon. At last, we have the fact that base gohan could hold the zed sword when kibit could not even hold it half a second and kaioshin don't even tried... To finish, there are the controversial but still real arg from vegeta that said that he could win the budokai with his base level, what means that vegeta>piccolo in the cell games (the last time he saw him), and we all know that piccolo should be at least as strong as c17 plus one year in the ROSAT, what probably brings him close to semiperfect cell (cell+c18) to say the least.
All this point out that the ssj decreased, probably caused by a boost in the sayans base level prior to the transformation, what is not surprising. If you see, goku was to much tired befre turn ssj against freeza and after he turned ssj, he returned to his normal level after this, freeza even shoots a kienza to him and he dodged it! Barely, but he did it. Also, when trunks showed up (cyborg freeza saga) everyone stated the huge ki that appeared and when goku made the instant movement to them, vegeta even stated that goku was just to fast for their eyes (goku was really using the instant transmission but the fact is that vegeta is not even surprise that goku is to much faster then him).
And if we join that fact that the original ssj, the ssj from goku on namek is a bit "diferent" from after that saga (for example goku buffed when he turnd ssj and after that he never buffed anymore), that toryama decided to take the multipliers power levels and that a 50x multiplier is really SOMETHING (i think even Toryama said that the multiplier was just too big but he had no other choice at that particulary moment of the saga), well, we see that a decreasing in the ssj multiplier and a increase in the base level is much possible.

Dupe of USSJed · 06-25-2008

Reasons 1-3 are bullshit, but reason 4 intriuges me. However, there is the overwhelming counterargument. Kaoken x20! Hell, even Kaokenx10, which Goku was using easily, is better than x5.

I also don't see why a multiplier would reduce, to increase a fixed number. Decreasing Multiplier Argument converts to Additive Theory, and in fact additive theory makes more sense for my previously stated reason.

**LegendarySSJ7** · 06-25-2008

Some augmentations in power are inane just because they are as plot devices. Just to add.

As for the whole deal with Tenshinhan being anyplace above or below 1,000,000, besides the aforementioned argument of gravity not having as much efficacy on those with higher battle powers, just because one increase is incredibly large doesn't mean the subsequent one has to be. Tenshinhan said that he wanted to train hard, but look at what happened by the end of the Freeza and Cell Saga Arcs respectively - the threat of Freeza is dealt away with and eventually done in completely, and Tenshinhan pronounces what he feels would be his ineptitude by turning down a chance for a run in the RoSaT. "1,000,000" may be stretching it at that point.

Furthermore, let's take Kuririn - he's gotten himself out of some dicey situations with some of the greatest behemoths of villainy in the universe. Does this potentially make him stronger (or just stronger) than Tenshinhan? Yes (but Kuririn vs. Tenshinhan is an alteracatino I won't lapse into here, as no one view is right by full intents and means, even if good many points do err towards Kuririn, but then some towards Tenshinhan). Does this make him Freeza's equal? No.

As for the Neo-Ki-ho-ho.... recollect that even though some blasts are just ludicriously large in output, that technique did not reflect Tenshinhan's physical capacity and was a desperation move at the utmost. It would have killed Tenshinhan had he continued using it.

I'm not saying any one person is right, just expanding upon the views I'm of, on reason of that.

Dupe of USSJed · 06-25-2008

....yes? I seriously cannot understand half of that.... its too cold over here :(

Your saying that I'm right, right??

uki1234 · 06-25-2008

Those reasons ain't bullshit. I hope you realize that with 50x multiplier base Trunks for example would be nowhere near strong enough to push imperfect Cell miles away.

So it would be good if you would stop being so strongheaded and accept the facts?.. kaioken doesn't exist by that time, period. If it does, there is also no reason why Goku wouldn't use it over MSSJ, since there is no strain in that form.

Dupe of USSJed · 06-25-2008

Quote:

So it would be good if you would stop being so strongheaded and accept the facts?..

Cough *Says Uki as he ignores the fucking Kaoken* Cough

Face it, your questionable Decreasing multiplier theory, and my shining pillar of truth additive theory, were both shot down by this one fact! They're dead ok! DEAD!!!!!!

Quote:

If it does, there is also no reason why Goku wouldn't use it over MSSJ, since there is no strain in that form.

You should be the worlds first DBZ themed comedian.... why would he use Kaoken? Cuz if MSSJ was like, x5 or whatever you think it is, then he could either A) Lose to Cell, or B) Kaokenx20 and annilate Cell in a instant. An instant! Kaoken can drain wtf energy it likes, if it can defeat Cell in less than a second, then Goku merely has to last 1 second in the form to win the battle.

SuperTien · 06-28-2008

I would have to agree that supersaiyan form decreasing could be thought of as ludacris. I mean, it's supposed to be the ultimate form in the universe, tohugh tiwth training a being can out match it. Piccolo could because he is in fact a super namekain.

I would think training and mastering the super saiyan form would increase the power or increase from the previous uses of it, not decrease it, that would just be rediculous. Their main goal is to become far powerful not incrediably weaker with a trasformation.

Like noted many times, A kaioken stronger than Supersaiyan would be used if true that the super saiyan form decreases with age. But perhaps it could make sense that the form decreases. I do like the beleifs that follow:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ixidor
1) the fact that piccolo was so strong as a ssj in the cyborg saga brings the question: would goku let piccolo become like 40x times stronger then his base level? Ok, i guess everyone agrees that piccolo surpassed his base power but with such magnitude? We are talking about goku and we all know he usually, even with his base level, is stronger then piccolo. So, it's my belief that goku's base level was not 40x or 50x times weaker then piccolo. Maybe 4x or 5x times weaker, but not that much.
2) after the cell games a base trunks send imperfect cell away during several miles with his base power and with just a kiai! This is rather impressive when imperfect cell stated that he was stronger then the cyborgs and that he had probably started absorbing thousands of people...
3) trunks and goten fight with c18. Even with his movements very limited it was showed that they were pretty close with c18. In fact if you notice, even if they could hardly move in that suit, c18's punches and blasts didn't make any damage to them even with his base level.
4) vegeta, goku and gohan's base level showed very developed in the boo saga. Vegeta stunned kaioshin with his base power when he blew up pui, implying that vegeta>kaioshin. Goku could keep up with yakon that was 3,75 times wekaer then his ssj, and even if people don't like it 3000 kilis was the max power from ssj goku, since he need to turn ssj2 to blow up yakon, stated by vegeta. Also, in this same fight gohan stated that he and goku could beat yakon without even using the ssj level, when goku lost his ssj the first time to feed yakon. At last, we have the fact that base gohan could hold the zed sword when kibit could not even hold it half a second and kaioshin don't even tried... To finish, there are the controversial but still real arg from vegeta that said that he could win the budokai with his base level, what means that vegeta>piccolo in the cell games (the last time he saw him), and we all know that piccolo should be at least as strong as c17 plus one year in the ROSAT, what probably brings him close to semiperfect cell (cell+c18) to say the least.
All this point out that the ssj decreased, probably caused by a boost in the sayans base level prior to the transformation, what is not surprising. If you see, goku was to much tired befre turn ssj against freeza and after he turned ssj, he returned to his normal level after this, freeza even shoots a kienza to him and he dodged it! Barely, but he did it. Also, when trunks showed up (cyborg freeza saga) everyone stated the huge ki that appeared and when goku made the instant movement to them, vegeta even stated that goku was just to fast for their eyes (goku was really using the instant transmission but the fact is that vegeta is not even surprise that goku is to much faster then him).
And if we join that fact that the original ssj, the ssj from goku on namek is a bit "diferent" from after that saga (for example goku buffed when he turnd ssj and after that he never buffed anymore), that toryama decided to take the multipliers power levels and that a 50x multiplier is really SOMETHING (i think even Toryama said that the multiplier was just too big but he had no other choice at that particulary moment of the saga), well, we see that a decreasing in the ssj multiplier and a increase in the base level is much possible.

Perhaps it is easily explained that a supersaiyan with a 50 and over times increase would be far to powerful in terms of use in the manga and the other characters would be rather useless compared to them and loss of story would be lost. This is why akira did away with powerlevels and the fun with them. It frees him up to have any character do what he want. Wouldn't it be boring if just goku was able to fight?

See this potential loss of the super saiyan transformation could make sense or seem to happen for it let's tien and piccolo and the other characters do more respectiable attacks compared to the over powered 50 times supersaiyan.

I would say any of the ideas I have seen so far are equally matched on being correct. I will continue to see how this develops.

As for the kiri or kili meter we never see what goku is in kiri value bfore the 3,000 kiri level correct? Also we have no idea what a kiri could be. One kiri could be 120,000,000. Any thought about that or explanation?

Dupe of USSJed · 06-28-2008

Piccolo=Super Namek
Super Namek=x35 multiplier

Explains everything(Even the ludacris Piccolo+Nail PL)

06-24-2008	#184 (permalink)
uki1234 (20) Super Saiyan 2 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Belgrade, Serbia Posts: 1,204 Rep Power: 11	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 Lots of times, like kiri metar... soz I'm too tired to discuss it again. __________________ First World War, the last defense of Belgrade: "Soldiers! Heroes! The supreme command has erased our regiment from its records. Our regiment has been sacrificed for the honor of Belgrade and the Fatherland. Therefore, you no longer have to worry for your lives - they do not exist anymore. So, forward to glory! For King and Fatherland! Long live the king! Long live Belgrade!" Major Dragutin Gavrilovic - Oct. 1915

06-24-2008	#185 (permalink)
Remixxx (24) Super Saiyan 4 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Planet Neptune Posts: 3,458 Rep Power: 70	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 Dragonball fans really do like to make up their minds with minor proofs..like kiri metar ...face expressions...training and so on __________________

06-25-2008	#188 (permalink)
Dupe of USSJed (28) Lord of Worlds Join Date: May 2008 Location: drawing. Im kinda the best drawer in my class , not to brag or anything Posts: 7,707 Rep Power: 202	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 Reasons 1-3 are bullshit, but reason 4 intriuges me. However, there is the overwhelming counterargument. Kaoken x20! Hell, even Kaokenx10, which Goku was using easily, is better than x5. I also don't see why a multiplier would reduce, to increase a fixed number. Decreasing Multiplier Argument converts to Additive Theory, and in fact additive theory makes more sense for my previously stated reason.

06-25-2008	#189 (permalink)
LegendarySSJ7 Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: LA, CA, USA. Posts: 2,746 Rep Power: 49	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 Some augmentations in power are inane just because they are as plot devices. Just to add. As for the whole deal with Tenshinhan being anyplace above or below 1,000,000, besides the aforementioned argument of gravity not having as much efficacy on those with higher battle powers, just because one increase is incredibly large doesn't mean the subsequent one has to be. Tenshinhan said that he wanted to train hard, but look at what happened by the end of the Freeza and Cell Saga Arcs respectively - the threat of Freeza is dealt away with and eventually done in completely, and Tenshinhan pronounces what he feels would be his ineptitude by turning down a chance for a run in the RoSaT. "1,000,000" may be stretching it at that point. Furthermore, let's take Kuririn - he's gotten himself out of some dicey situations with some of the greatest behemoths of villainy in the universe. Does this potentially make him stronger (or just stronger) than Tenshinhan? Yes (but Kuririn vs. Tenshinhan is an alteracatino I won't lapse into here, as no one view is right by full intents and means, even if good many points do err towards Kuririn, but then some towards Tenshinhan). Does this make him Freeza's equal? No. As for the Neo-Ki-ho-ho.... recollect that even though some blasts are just ludicriously large in output, that technique did not reflect Tenshinhan's physical capacity and was a desperation move at the utmost. It would have killed Tenshinhan had he continued using it. I'm not saying any one person is right, just expanding upon the views I'm of, on reason of that. __________________

06-25-2008	#190 (permalink)
Dupe of USSJed (28) Lord of Worlds Join Date: May 2008 Location: drawing. Im kinda the best drawer in my class , not to brag or anything Posts: 7,707 Rep Power: 202	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 ....yes? I seriously cannot understand half of that.... its too cold over here :( Your saying that I'm right, right??

06-25-2008	#191 (permalink)
uki1234 (20) Super Saiyan 2 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Belgrade, Serbia Posts: 1,204 Rep Power: 11	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 Those reasons ain't bullshit. I hope you realize that with 50x multiplier base Trunks for example would be nowhere near strong enough to push imperfect Cell miles away. So it would be good if you would stop being so strongheaded and accept the facts?.. kaioken doesn't exist by that time, period. If it does, there is also no reason why Goku wouldn't use it over MSSJ, since there is no strain in that form. __________________ First World War, the last defense of Belgrade: "Soldiers! Heroes! The supreme command has erased our regiment from its records. Our regiment has been sacrificed for the honor of Belgrade and the Fatherland. Therefore, you no longer have to worry for your lives - they do not exist anymore. So, forward to glory! For King and Fatherland! Long live the king! Long live Belgrade!" Major Dragutin Gavrilovic - Oct. 1915

06-28-2008	#194 (permalink)
Dupe of USSJed (28) Lord of Worlds Join Date: May 2008 Location: drawing. Im kinda the best drawer in my class , not to brag or anything Posts: 7,707 Rep Power: 202	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 Piccolo=Super Namek Super Namek=x35 multiplier Explains everything(Even the ludacris Piccolo+Nail PL) __________________ DBZ RPG Accepting new entrants! Must be active every day, at some point between 10am and 6pm New Zealand Time(+13), and willing to take the RPG seriously. 9 out of 10 MFGers thing that Orancello is SSJJason. If you are one of the 1 in 10 that don't, copy this and put it in your sig. Accepted Character Races. Android(#8, can upgrade later), Alien(Custom), Bio Android(Cell type), Changeling(Frieza), Demon, Human, Kaioshin, Namekian. Others conditionally. No Saiyans and Hybrids, sorry.