JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 - Page 12

Dupe of USSJed · 06-23-2008

Quote:

xD. Well, if you think Tien was>>a million after the three years of training in the Android Saga, why couldn't they be?

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No, purely because I don't give a shit where they are, and so haven't paid the slightest attention to their training.

Purely because I don't give a shit where they are, and haven't paid the slightest attnetion to their training. So at the moment I go with popular opinion. Once this Tien thing is sorted out, perhaps I will go and prove they are over 1 million as well.

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Eh? Tien gained a lot there too, that was pre-King Kai training, where Tien could still get a reasonable boost from earth training, afterwards it was pretty insignificant.

Now, I have Neon Z on Daizex to thank for this: WHO SAID REGULAR GRAVITY IS USELESS FOR TRAINING AFTER TRAINING AT KING KAI'S?!!!!?!

Hero · 06-23-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by USSJed

Now, I have Neon Z on Daizex to thank for this: WHO SAID REGULAR GRAVITY IS USELESS FOR TRAINING AFTER TRAINING AT KING KAI'S?!!!!?!

Once again, see Goku's gravity training on the way to Namek. He implies that after mastering the 50x normal gravity, it wouldn't do him much good anymore, and he has to go to a higher level.

I really half-assed that Tien/Saiyan Saga argument though

Dupe of USSJed · 06-23-2008

Quote:

I really half-assed that Tien/Saiyan Saga argument though

Indeed you did, but what about this: Shin Kikoho=Force Kikoho(as in concussive force)?

I know Shin Kikoho literally means new Kikoho or something...

Quote:

He implies that after mastering the 50x normal gravity, it wouldn't do him much good anymore, and he has to go to a higher level.

I don't have the proper manga, so I cannot see the exact quote... but what could also make sense, is that once he mastered x50, he went "Well, its time to train even harder to increase by 80,000 in only a week! x100 here I come!"

And I am open to the possibility that Tien used Kaoken, I remember someone mentioning it earlier

Hero · 06-23-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by USSJed

Indeed you did, but what about this: Shin Kikoho=Force Kikoho(as in concussive force)?

I know Shin Kikoho literally means new Kikoho or something...

I thought Shin Kikoho was just a much more powerful version of it, that took your life force and made it into an INCREDIBLY strong attack.

Quote:

I don't have the proper manga, so I cannot see the exact quote... but what could also make sense, is that once he mastered x50, he went "Well, its time to train even harder to increase by 80,000 in only a week! x100 here I come!"

Well I'll have to check my manga(I have the SJ Viz translation) later when I feel like digging it out.

Quote:

And I am open to the possibility that Tien used Kaoken, I remember someone mentioning it earlier

Well, then where was his aura? Lol. And I don't see how he would've learned it, as it is never implied that he learned it at King Kai's.

Dupe of USSJed · 06-23-2008

Some people say that Shin Kikoho is like Kikoho boosted by some form of Kaoken like ability.

Quote:

I thought Shin Kikoho was just a much more powerful version of it, that took your life force and made it into an INCREDIBLY strong attack.

It is indeed stronger, but seriously look at these multipliers. Lets assume the attack was 80% of Cells power, which is why it knocked him down but inflicted little damage.

Minimal Cell and Tien Power Levels
Cell:430,000,000
Tien:15,000
Kikoho:Just under x23,000 times Tiens Power Level
Maximum Cell, Minimal Tien
Cell:4,000,000,000
Tien:15,000
Kikoho: x213,333 of power level. Two hundred and thirteen thousand!

Minimal Cell and Maximum Tien Power Levels
Cell:430,000,000
Tien:10,000,000
Kikoho: x34 of Tiens Power level

Maximal Cell and Maximum Tien Power Levels
Cell:4,000,000,000
Tien:10,000,000
Kikoho: x320 of Tiens Power level

Hero · 06-23-2008

Yeah, but x34 is pretty ridiculous too.

And I highly doubt he was that high. I was thinking that maybe around 50 million or so, kinda of like a suppressed state so he could control himself better or something. That's always been how I justify the really bad plot hole/device. =/

Dupe of USSJed · 06-23-2008

hmmm.... I will reread that part, BRB

Edit: Ok, remember this is all FANSLATION. Until someone posts the proper quotes, lets just go on this

1: When Cell absorbs #17, Goku says "Cell's ki has grown all of a sudden"
Semiperfect Cell>>>Impefect Cell so...
Semiperfect Cell>>>Piccolo so...
Semiperfect Cell>>>All Z Fighters cept Vegeta and Trunks in the CoSaT

2: Semiperfect Cell is now much faster than #16, when they were MOL even before(Actually, it seems #16>>Cell)

3: #16's punch does fuck all, before, his punches were having serious effect
Semiperfect Cell>>#16

4: Cell blasts #16 "Looks like I've gotten stronger(As in faster and stronger) as well"
Semiperfect Cell>>>Imperfect Cell double stated

5: When Vegeta arrives, Cell laughs at the possibility he could defeat him.
Semiperfect Cell>>>SSJ Vegeta pre CoSaT

Theres no way Cell is at 50 million. Cell is 100% guarenteed to be over 150 million. Keep in mind that is minimum he is guarenteed to surpass, purely because it is the highest stated power level.

Hero · 06-23-2008

Hmm, ok, I'll have to check my mangas later tonight(I'll post in the morning) to see what the official quotes are.

ANB · 06-23-2008

I did not even notice this thread, had to play catch-up. Hopefully I didn't overlook anything.

My take on it:

A fighter needs to find tougher training eventually.

I can curl 50-lb dumbells for ten reps three times. In about a month or so, I get used to the weight. Now, if someone were to claim "you would no longer benefit from it" then they'd be an idiot. I AM benefiting from it. But eventually, it will no longer provide gain.

So what would, theoretically, me curling only 50-lbs for th rest of my life do for me...? Well, it'll keep me in shape. If I stop lifting weights, I will begin to loose muscle-mass. Weight-lifting divides the cells and multiplies them to make them bulky and lean. So if I consistently use the same pattern, with the same weight, it WILL continue making cells divide. Does that make sense...?

In other words, if Tenshinhan trains at an average rate of 1.5x per year, the mutliplyer isn't going to go down. It'll stay pretty much the same. But if he gets lazy of course it will decrease. If he pushes himself, it'll get higher. But here's the thing: If he keeps training the same way never pushing himself and never getting lazy, it [the multiplyer] won't get that much higher.

Let's use exercise for another analogy. My usual training method is to do push-ups in sets of 50 until I get to 200; sometimes 300. Now, there are many ways to do a push-up. I can do knuckles, put hands right beneath my body, or spread them out wide so that it takes longer (among other methods).

Let's say I like doing flat-handed push-ups where my arms are right beneath my abdomen and not spread out. This method will strengthen the biceps and the triceps at the same time. If I do 200 a day for 3 months I'll probably have really developed muscles. But again: If I don't push myself or change my method I won't get much gain; I'll simply stay in shape. If I want to push myself, why not simply increase the number to 400??? I'm bound to get twice as strong in the same amount of time. And if I want to improve myself even more, I should try out new methods. An exercise that develops my biceps and triceps is great, but let's face it, that's all it does. How about trying an exercise that develops a different area of the body...? So I start doing wide-push-ups and that'll build up my chest and arm-pits. Or I could do a totally different exercise like sit-ups. So the message I'm sending is "expand your horizon" so to speak.

This has lots to do with the current discussion. Goku knew the Saiyajins were going to be even stronger than Radditz. He and Piccolo won by the skin of their teeth. In fact, they had to work togethor and Goku died in the process. So if he was getting pwned by a Saiyajin, who is much weaker than his comrade, and there are TWO comrades well...it's pretty clear doing the same old work-out won't cut it; especially if you only have a year.

Goku could have benefited greatly training with Piccolo and Gohan but...he was dead. So Kami-Sama was wise to send him to Kaio and train the Z-fighters as back-up. Goku did two things going to Kaio's:

1-He expanded his horizon and tried something different.
2-He pushed himself.

Sometimes even pushing yourself isn't enough. Likewise, trying so many different things can actually work against you if you aren't getting any gain from it. Both are great seperately but provide the best results together. So Goku trained far harder than he ever had and he tried something new.

Tenshinhan was stated to train both harder and more innovatively than Goku (he said "I'll put my own spin on things"). Not only that, he had several sparring partners AND he was there longer. So going with that, how can anyone be stupid enough to think his power level increased by "half of Goku's"?! And how can you say Tenshinhan did not surpass 8,000??? People...seriously. That defies all logic; In real life, and in DBZ itself.

Dupe of USSJed · 06-23-2008

Marvelous. Also, my addition to that: Tien training in 1x gravity does not mean Zero increase. We don't know what he does for training, perhaps he does push ups with a 1 tonne boulder on his back. Now, lets say he does that in a grav chamber. If he wants more increase, he sets gravity to x2, and then its as if he is lifting a 2 ton boulder. In 1x gravity, he could simply lift 2 boulders at once, or a 2 ton boulder. He could tie 10 ton weights to his arms and legs and run/fight Chaotzu or Clones with these attached to him. When he maxes out from that, double the weight, or split into eight Tiens instead of four and keep the same weight. Get it?

ANB · 06-23-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by USSJed

Marvelous. Also, my addition to that: Tien training in 1x gravity does not mean Zero increase. We don't know what he does for training, perhaps he does push ups with a 1 tonne boulder on his back. Now, lets say he does that in a grav chamber. If he wants more increase, he sets gravity to x2, and then its as if he is lifting a 2 ton boulder. In 1x gravity, he could simply lift 2 boulders at once, or a 2 ton boulder. He could tie 10 ton weights to his arms and legs and run/fight Chaotzu or Clones with these attached to him. When he maxes out from that, double the weight, or split into eight Tiens instead of four and keep the same weight. Get it?

It makes sense, except for the last part. Splitting into different Tenshinans wouldn't provide gain the way your thinking of it. Not because of my own knowledge or anything, but because of a simple manga fact: Splitting himself divides the strength by the number of clones created.

When Goku fought him, he said there are two weak-spots:

-They were all attacking in the same way. Goku used this to his advantage when they used the eye-lazer simultaneously. The solar-flare blinded them all because they were all looking the same way.

-It divides up the power-level. Thus, making him weaker. Goku did not flat out state this weakness in the technique but he implied it by defeating the clones effortlessly with one or two punches each. And it makes sense: If his power-level is 200 and he makes 4 clones, each clone will only have a pl of 50.

So if Tenshinhan were to try and make gain, as far as strength is concerened, he'd need to lift a boulder/whatever that is that clone's limit. Over time, each clone would surpass it's limits until they are as strong as himself in normal form. Not only that, but Tenshinhan would reap the benefits of EACH clone's training when he puts himself back together. Have you ever watched Naruto...? The main character can use a similar attack dubbed "Kage Bunshin No Jutsu" (which means art of the doppleganger. A doppleganger is like an exact double of yourself). Anyway, Naruto's sensei told him that if he used the jutsu to split into two of himelf, and sent the other one to go do some push-ups, then when the clone came back and he recombined he'd gain that clone's experience. In other words, if that clone saw a strange bird, when it came back Naruto would know about the bird and could even recall it as if he himself experienced it.

We don't know exactly how they "train" as the series becomes more and more complicated. The term itself is used in a very broad sense just to let the reader know they were imrpoving themselves. But the fact their power-level increases each time proves they had to be doing some strength-enhancment (not steroids, lol). And we clearly saw Goku doing push-ups, running laps, and doing stretches in the gavity room; alongside practicing his forms and priming his body to get used to the gravity.

Dupe of USSJed · 06-23-2008

Exactly. With one addition. Because each of the clones is weaker than Tien, they won't have hit that theoretical "This is how strong you can get without multiple gravities thing". Or if they do, just split again until there are 400 Tiens and then they all reach the "maximum" you could achieive in x1 gravity. I love this, people say "Oh but the clones are weaker" and I say "Exactly"

the predator · 06-24-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANB

I did not even notice this thread, had to play catch-up. Hopefully I didn't overlook anything.

My take on it:

A fighter needs to find tougher training eventually.

I can curl 50-lb dumbells for ten reps three times. In about a month or so, I get used to the weight. Now, if someone were to claim "you would no longer benefit from it" then they'd be an idiot. I AM benefiting from it. But eventually, it will no longer provide gain.

So what would, theoretically, me curling only 50-lbs for th rest of my life do for me...? Well, it'll keep me in shape. If I stop lifting weights, I will begin to loose muscle-mass. Weight-lifting divides the cells and multiplies them to make them bulky and lean. So if I consistently use the same pattern, with the same weight, it WILL continue making cells divide. Does that make sense...?

In other words, if Tenshinhan trains at an average rate of 1.5x per year, the mutliplyer isn't going to go down. It'll stay pretty much the same. But if he gets lazy of course it will decrease. If he pushes himself, it'll get higher. But here's the thing: If he keeps training the same way never pushing himself and never getting lazy, it [the multiplyer] won't get that much higher.

Let's use exercise for another analogy. My usual training method is to do push-ups in sets of 50 until I get to 200; sometimes 300. Now, there are many ways to do a push-up. I can do knuckles, put hands right beneath my body, or spread them out wide so that it takes longer (among other methods).

Let's say I like doing flat-handed push-ups where my arms are right beneath my abdomen and not spread out. This method will strengthen the biceps and the triceps at the same time. If I do 200 a day for 3 months I'll probably have really developed muscles. But again: If I don't push myself or change my method I won't get much gain; I'll simply stay in shape. If I want to push myself, why not simply increase the number to 400??? I'm bound to get twice as strong in the same amount of time. And if I want to improve myself even more, I should try out new methods. An exercise that develops my biceps and triceps is great, but let's face it, that's all it does. How about trying an exercise that develops a different area of the body...? So I start doing wide-push-ups and that'll build up my chest and arm-pits. Or I could do a totally different exercise like sit-ups. So the message I'm sending is "expand your horizon" so to speak.

This has lots to do with the current discussion. Goku knew the Saiyajins were going to be even stronger than Radditz. He and Piccolo won by the skin of their teeth. In fact, they had to work togethor and Goku died in the process. So if he was getting pwned by a Saiyajin, who is much weaker than his comrade, and there are TWO comrades well...it's pretty clear doing the same old work-out won't cut it; especially if you only have a year.

Goku could have benefited greatly training with Piccolo and Gohan but...he was dead. So Kami-Sama was wise to send him to Kaio and train the Z-fighters as back-up. Goku did two things going to Kaio's:

1-He expanded his horizon and tried something different.
2-He pushed himself.

Sometimes even pushing yourself isn't enough. Likewise, trying so many different things can actually work against you if you aren't getting any gain from it. Both are great seperately but provide the best results together. So Goku trained far harder than he ever had and he tried something new.

Tenshinhan was stated to train both harder and more innovatively than Goku (he said "I'll put my own spin on things"). Not only that, he had several sparring partners AND he was there longer. So going with that, how can anyone be stupid enough to think his power level increased by "half of Goku's"?! And how can you say Tenshinhan did not surpass 8,000??? People...seriously. That defies all logic; In real life, and in DBZ itself.

repped

Now in relation to the whole Krillin and Yamcha argument we can't actually compare them to Tienshinhan. Because firstly Tien was always more powerful than both of them (except in the Namek saga where Krillin surpasses Tien, and that is MAYBE surpasses Tien cause we'll never know for sure)

Also another thing is that apparently Krillin and Yamcha don't have half the work ethic Tien has. Tien is always busy in the mountains training while Yamcha and Krillin are always goofing off (especially Yamcha). Did they surpass a million? I don't know about Yamcha but I think Krillin might have.

Krillin has more power than he shows in DBZ I believe. This is because he's never confident and he always relies on others to save the day. He never really steps up to save the day he steps up to buy some time for the protagonists who are ready to save the day and when he does this he gets his crap beaten out of him and then gets up again as if he's at full power.

speaking of full power I don't think I've ever really seen a full-powered kienzan (maybe the one against Cell?), which could prove lethal.

But the topic is Tien...1000,000? So let's get back to that. USSJed first of all assuming that Tien knows Kaioken is taking it reaaalll far. We never really see an aura so if Tien was intended to have kaioken, believe me we'd see the magnificent red aura. So I can say with confidence that Tien never learned kaioken.

We've been commenting on the training and frankly that area is too ambiguous to see what his training really consisted off. But the increase in the Vegeta saga, the spar with base Trunks and the shin kikoho I think are enough evidence to support that Tien<<<1000,000

Frankly it is the only evidence you have USSJed.

Evil Vegeta · 06-24-2008

What spar with base Trunks? You mean in movie #9? The strongest kienzan Krillin ever used, was the one against Freeza. He never used it again.

06-23-2008	#171 (permalink)
Hero (24) Super Saiyan 4 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: USA Posts: 3,166 Rep Power: 135	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 Yeah, but x34 is pretty ridiculous too. And I highly doubt he was that high. I was thinking that maybe around 50 million or so, kinda of like a suppressed state so he could control himself better or something. That's always been how I justify the really bad plot hole/device. =/ __________________ Top 5 Manga: 1. Dragon Ball 2. One Piece 3. Hunter x Hunter 4. Vagabond 5. Hikaru No Go Dragon Ball/Z Power Levels

06-23-2008	#172 (permalink)
Dupe of USSJed (28) Lord of Worlds Join Date: May 2008 Location: drawing. Im kinda the best drawer in my class , not to brag or anything Posts: 7,707 Rep Power: 202	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 hmmm.... I will reread that part, BRB Edit: Ok, remember this is all FANSLATION. Until someone posts the proper quotes, lets just go on this 1: When Cell absorbs #17, Goku says "Cell's ki has grown all of a sudden" Semiperfect Cell>>>Impefect Cell so... Semiperfect Cell>>>Piccolo so... Semiperfect Cell>>>All Z Fighters cept Vegeta and Trunks in the CoSaT 2: Semiperfect Cell is now much faster than #16, when they were MOL even before(Actually, it seems #16>>Cell) 3: #16's punch does fuck all, before, his punches were having serious effect Semiperfect Cell>>#16 4: Cell blasts #16 "Looks like I've gotten stronger(As in faster and stronger) as well" Semiperfect Cell>>>Imperfect Cell double stated 5: When Vegeta arrives, Cell laughs at the possibility he could defeat him. Semiperfect Cell>>>SSJ Vegeta pre CoSaT Theres no way Cell is at 50 million. Cell is 100% guarenteed to be over 150 million. Keep in mind that is minimum he is guarenteed to surpass, purely because it is the highest stated power level.

06-23-2008	#173 (permalink)
Hero (24) Super Saiyan 4 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: USA Posts: 3,166 Rep Power: 135	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 Hmm, ok, I'll have to check my mangas later tonight(I'll post in the morning) to see what the official quotes are. __________________ Top 5 Manga: 1. Dragon Ball 2. One Piece 3. Hunter x Hunter 4. Vagabond 5. Hikaru No Go Dragon Ball/Z Power Levels

06-23-2008	#174 (permalink)
ANB (24) Super Saiyan 4 Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,003 Rep Power: 47	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 I did not even notice this thread, had to play catch-up. Hopefully I didn't overlook anything. My take on it: A fighter needs to find tougher training eventually. I can curl 50-lb dumbells for ten reps three times. In about a month or so, I get used to the weight. Now, if someone were to claim "you would no longer benefit from it" then they'd be an idiot. I AM benefiting from it. But eventually, it will no longer provide gain. So what would, theoretically, me curling only 50-lbs for th rest of my life do for me...? Well, it'll keep me in shape. If I stop lifting weights, I will begin to loose muscle-mass. Weight-lifting divides the cells and multiplies them to make them bulky and lean. So if I consistently use the same pattern, with the same weight, it WILL continue making cells divide. Does that make sense...? In other words, if Tenshinhan trains at an average rate of 1.5x per year, the mutliplyer isn't going to go down. It'll stay pretty much the same. But if he gets lazy of course it will decrease. If he pushes himself, it'll get higher. But here's the thing: If he keeps training the same way never pushing himself and never getting lazy, it [the multiplyer] *won't get that* much higher*. Let's use exercise for another analogy. My usual training method is to do push-ups in sets of 50 until I get to 200; sometimes 300. Now, there are many ways to do a push-up. I can do knuckles, put hands right beneath my body, or spread them out wide so that it takes longer (among other methods). Let's say I like doing flat-handed push-ups where my arms are right beneath my abdomen and not spread out. This method will strengthen the biceps and the triceps at the same time. If I do 200 a day for 3 months I'll probably have really developed muscles. But again: If I don't push myself or change my method I won't get much gain; I'll simply stay in shape. If I want to push myself, why not simply increase the number to 400??? I'm bound to get twice as strong in the same amount of time. And if I want to improve myself even more, I should try out new methods. An exercise that develops my biceps and triceps is great, but let's face it, that's all it does. How about trying an exercise that develops a different area of the body...? So I start doing wide-push-ups and that'll build up my chest* and arm-pits. Or I could do a totally different exercise like sit-ups. So the message I'm sending is "expand your horizon" so to speak. This has lots to do with the current discussion. Goku knew the Saiyajins were going to be even stronger than Radditz. He and Piccolo won by the skin of their teeth. In fact, they had to work togethor and Goku died in the process. So if he was getting pwned by a Saiyajin, who is much weaker than his comrade, and there are TWO comrades well...it's pretty clear doing the same old work-out won't cut it; especially if you only have a year. Goku could have benefited greatly training with Piccolo and Gohan but...he was dead. So Kami-Sama was wise to send him to Kaio and train the Z-fighters as back-up. Goku did two things going to Kaio's: 1-He expanded his horizon and tried something different. 2-He pushed himself. Sometimes even pushing yourself isn't enough. Likewise, trying so many different things can actually work against you if you aren't getting any gain from it. Both are great seperately but provide the best results together. So Goku trained far harder than he ever had and he tried something new. Tenshinhan was stated to train both harder and more innovatively than Goku (he said "I'll put my own spin on things"). Not only that, he had several sparring partners AND he was there longer. So going with that, how can anyone be stupid enough to think his power level increased by "half of Goku's"?! And how can you say Tenshinhan did not surpass 8,000??? People...seriously. That defies all logic; In real life, and in DBZ itself. __________________

06-23-2008	#175 (permalink)
Dupe of USSJed (28) Lord of Worlds Join Date: May 2008 Location: drawing. Im kinda the best drawer in my class , not to brag or anything Posts: 7,707 Rep Power: 202	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 Marvelous. Also, my addition to that: Tien training in 1x gravity does not mean Zero increase. We don't know what he does for training, perhaps he does push ups with a 1 tonne boulder on his back. Now, lets say he does that in a grav chamber. If he wants more increase, he sets gravity to x2, and then its as if he is lifting a 2 ton boulder. In 1x gravity, he could simply lift 2 boulders at once, or a 2 ton boulder. He could tie 10 ton weights to his arms and legs and run/fight Chaotzu or Clones with these attached to him. When he maxes out from that, double the weight, or split into eight Tiens instead of four and keep the same weight. Get it?

06-23-2008	#177 (permalink)
Dupe of USSJed (28) Lord of Worlds Join Date: May 2008 Location: drawing. Im kinda the best drawer in my class , not to brag or anything Posts: 7,707 Rep Power: 202	Re: JATFBT-Tien so totally >>>1,000,000 Exactly. With one addition. Because each of the clones is weaker than Tien, they won't have hit that theoretical "This is how strong you can get without multiple gravities thing". Or if they do, just split again until there are 400 Tiens and then they all reach the "maximum" you could achieive in x1 gravity. I love this, people say "Oh but the clones are weaker" and I say "Exactly"