Kaio

Alright; so some of you have probably noticed me popping up in some of those "super saiyan multipler decreasing?" threads, and stating that it simply is decreasing for this reason, however, I've also noticed that it usually just gets ignored, either because it seems too ridiculous for a lot of people or. . . some other reason I can't think of from the top of my head, so I've finally decided to start a thread on it which will either help me enforce my opinion or encourage me to stfu about it.

So basically people question the idea of a super saiyan multiplier decreasing for numerous reasons: mainly because the power levels in, mainly the Majin Buu arc, would be ridiculously high and some of the fights/ power differences/ plot advances wouldn't make much sense.

So then, there's the idea of a simple "additive" to one's power when they transform into super saiyan 1-3. I've thought about it for awhile; seems somewhat logical, I suppose, but I would assume that pretty much in the Cell saga, that the additive would become less than half of the saiyan's base power, and "mastered" super saiyan, I believe, isn't really some major increase of power over regular super saiyain but just a more productive use of the form. So, I would have to assume that there should still be some kind of multiplier, because after awhile, it would've just been better for Goku to use kaio-ken instead of the additive power of the super saiyan form.

What I really think the problem is here is that the creator probably, really didn't even think too much about it either, especially after the Cell saga, so really, any reason to believe that there is a shrinking power boost with the super saiyan form before the Majin Buu arc is sort of pointless; if we pretended that there was no Majin Buu arc, this subject probably would never have been brought up, but since the saga DOES exist the way it does, people have to adjust their power level lists to suit the logic of a seemingly decreasing super saiyan power increase.

So, all and all, this theory to why a super saiyan multiplier could be decreasing could ultimately be pointless, but then again, it could be what Akira intended for the plot and/ or a correction. I believe their is a super saiyan multiplier, and that it's decreasing, along with the other form's multipliers simply because it would put no sense to mystic/ultimate Gohan. You're probably thinking that's a stupid reason to believe that there is a decreasing multiplier, but is it really so stupid?

Now, if we consider that Gohan's power up unlocked from the elder Kai is connected with a decreasing super saiyan multiplier, we would also have to assume that the super saiyan power up isn't really "decreasing", in a sense, but the power gained from transforming into a super saiyain is simply and naturally being converted into the saiyan's base-form power, most likely with the more mastery of their super saiyan power. The decreasing multiplier would have to be a multiplier because if it was simply an additive that just seemed to be becoming more and more useless and insignificant with the saiyan's growing base power, you'd think Gohan would at least try transforming into super saiyan two against Majin Buu [w/ Gotenks & Piccolo absorbed], but he doesn't. And, the elder, supreme Kai specifically explains to Gohan that in order to become the "ultimate warrior", he would need to power up as if he were transforming into a super saiyan. . . super saiyan 1-2/3 simply wouldn't be enough, as additives, to power Gohan up so much (and it wouldn't make sense that the additive powers were just stapled onto Gohan's base form without the transformation).

If they were multipliers decreasing from the base from taking in more of the super saiyan power naturally, it would make more sense in explaining Gohan's boost in power, and to why he didn't transform after the power up, and why he never tried to against Majin Buu.

Devilz

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Madness

I skim read it.

Wow, awesme post. But paragraph more. It's easier on the eye.

Anyway, I think the whole "SSJ power converting into base power" is over-complicating it.

Next, who says that their base numbers have to be so high? It's simply assumed that they continue their growth from the Namek Saga. Goku could easily be at a base power of 10,000,000 in the Buu Saga. And don't give me that multiplier bollocks because that's definatly over-complicating things.

My advice:

Ditch the multipliers. Go by what seems right. It's a media document. So much is based on personal reading anyway. It doesn't have to be "correct" to everyone, because it never will be.

As long as you can justify it in the manga, it's fine.

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Dupe of USSJed

Which explains why they needed to find better forms. (Theory follows) Why could SSJ not beat Cell? Because it was only plus +150,000,000, meanwhile SSJ2 was =1,000,000,000 and if SSJ was a x50, then theoretically they would not need to uncover SSJ2 to defeat Cell, they could just train themselves to be 1/40th of Cells PL, and then SSJ to surpass him. If you can get what I am saying...

Madness

Or maybe they had a limit on their base forms (maybe 10 mill). Therefore, higher amounts of multiplication would be needed.

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Kaio

Correction; he was already transformed. Remember when I wrote about what the elder Kai said about Gohan becoming the "ultimate warrior"? He said power up as if he were transforming into a super saiyan; and like I said, if he was as desperate as he seemed to be against Majin Buu [w/ Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed], then you'd think he would've at least tried, right? Super saiyan one + two couldn't have been that pointless.

I figured about 6-8 sentences per paragraph was grammatically correct. . . I will fix the paragraphs though.

Maybe it is. . . I dunno; but it explains Gohan, and the other weird things that are debatable, like Goku vs. enraged Uub. And the rest of your post I sort of agree with and/ or understand what your saying. . . B-but my explanation is more INTERESTING than yours!

I know what you're saying; I've already heard this argument though, and I could've swore I said more about how the additives seem false, but I'm too lazy to look back and quote stuff. And technically, they all did try training their butts off (while also trying to figure out additional ways to boost their power).

Devilz

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Dupe of USSJed

I don't remember anything... but from what I have looked into, it seems like additive is entirely plausible ,if there was some way to explain the lack of Kaoken...

So it has the same major flaw a decreasing multiplier has.

uki1234

Its not a flaw. You just cant realise that kaioken doesn't exist, just like tails don't exist anymore.

Dupe of USSJed

But thats stupid. People are wanting something more logical than that. If Goku had said "Oh noes 4 sum rezon I kan't CaoCen ne mor" it would be fine, but he just does not use it any more. The only logical answer to that, is that SSJ is superior to Kaoken.

Like the tails argument, which can be explained by Goten and Trunks theoretically having their tails removed before we first saw them, Kaoken's dissapearance can be explained by simply saying SSJ is superior to it.

uki1234

Its not stupid, -removed-. Explain the fact that humans don't use kaioken, that Baby Trunks doesn't have a tail...
After all it is shown that the stronger the base power of character is, the higher kaioken can he do. So probably in android saga already, his kaioken would surpass "50x" on Namek.

Evil Vegeta

Damn, no!

Kaioken was just present 2-3 chapters prior to Goku using SSJ, so it wasn't like it was gone for the last 10-20 chapters in the battle. Goku was overflowing with new reserves of power, which is why he was energized once again; no healing, nor a power-up from his previous battle was needed, because he had the new SSJ, which outclassed Kaioken x20 by a long shot. The humans didn't use Kaioken because they never learned the skill, simple as that. Goku was the best when it came to power control, which is why he learned the skill, and advanced even more then he should've.

Super Saiyan>>>>>>>>>Kaioken x20>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Super Saiyan 3x increase

End of story.

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Thanks to Sphinx's badass skills. Yay.

Dupe of USSJed

1. Trunks has no tail
Answer: Like Gohan, and Goku, the tail was certainly removed at birth. Toriyama has given us a reason for the tail not being there.

2. The Humans did not use Kaoken because they were not taught the technique. If you wish to argue this, then tell me, why did Goku not use the Kikoho after he saw Tien use it. It is obviously stronger than anything else Goku has to offer (cept the infamous spirit bomb)

uki1234

I wasn't talking about 3x multiplier which is 10000 times better than ridiculous fan invented 50x.

Goku was healed, only a complete idiot or a blinded fan of fan invented 50x cannot see it(no offense).

Oh, so if a guy gets cleaned off by being in water, we can pretend that ever attack he took beforehand never happened. Okay.

And let's ignore the fact that he cannot even stand on his own. Lets ignore the fact that he couldn't walk, or he would have dodged the death beam that he certainly could normally dodge since Piccolo had enough time to push Goku away.

And let's forget the fact that Vegeta, on the other hand, could walk or stand, but, since he "had blood on him!", he must have been about to die.

Goku was shown to be hell lot stronger at the end of battle. He couldn't even see, not to mention barely dodge anything from 50% Frieza, not even with Kaioken 10x, and then suddenly he both perfectly sees and dodges an energy disc from even more powerful Frieza...

Only a complete idiot(no offense) can think that Trunks can become more than 50x stronger over few months, and surpass Gohan as he said he would.

The MSSJ multiplier is shown to be much less than 50x(kiri metar). Why then didn't Goku use kaioken and kill Cell? So kaioken argument is just wrong.

The multipliers decreasing theory has flaws as well, since for example Trunks has same multipliers as Goku and Vegeta even though he was SSJ for much more time... Not to mention that the whole theory is an assumption.

Evil Vegeta

The multiplier doesn't have to be 50x, but the multiplier