USSJed

He uses it in Dragon Ball and it makes a huge crater in the ground, so unless he used two different versions or something?

BTW, what maths are you referring to? I don't see any mathmatical reason for Goku to be thousands and thousands of times higher than Tien, I think that the possibility of his power level being in the millions is more plausible then the idea that the Kikoho is 30000x stronger(Or more, could be helluva lot more) than the user.

The last stated power level of Tien is 1830(or something) in the Daizenshuu, which is 50% of Piccolo's power. Hell, he kept up with Goku for a long time, I have always wondered why people think it's fine that he is in the same league(sorta) as Goku through dragon ball, but then gets utterly left behind later on. Every scene I have seen(...) indicates that Tien is actually comparable to the likes of Goku and Piccolo to some degree.

I would consider all the time I spent making an additive list worth it if people would be willing to reconsider the idea of Tien being such a weakling.

I have been a fan of DBZ for many years, and the whole time I have been seeing if it is possible for a human to come close to a Saiyan or Namek, and so far I have seen nothing that indicates otherwise. If you have some evidence I would be happy to see it.

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remixremix

I agree

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sub_zero

I like the list, but the only thing that bugs me is the diference between #17 and #18 because they are very close in power.

USSJed

Android #17 350 million

Android #18 320 million

Super Vegeta 220 million
-Base Vegeta 55 million
-Super Saiyan Boost 165 million

Howzat?

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Well, thing is, Tien doesn't have access to any transformations for power. The maths I spoke of run a bit like this:

Against the Saiyans, Tien was roughly 1800. Then he dies and goes to King Kai's place to train.

Goku trained for roughly half a year, so we'll just make it equitable to a Namek year for ease, and say he trained for 130 days. In that time his power jumped from approximately 400 to around 8000, a 20x increase. Much of this power would have come from the earlier parts of the training, when his body was rapidly adapting to the much higher gravity, but it doesn't matter, we'll apply a 20x multiplier for 130 days training at King Kai's generally.

But then you have to take into account that Goku wears weighted clothes that weigh the same as him, meaning that he actually experiences twice the G pressure, so training would be twice as effective for him. That means Tien only gets a 10x increase from 130 days, or 20x for his whole time there, 266 days.

That puts Tien at 36,000 by the time he is revived, just before Goku returns. It's worth noting that Goku's base has jumped to the millions through zenkais on Namek, so there's no way Tien is ever going to be equitable to that again.

And thre's the issue: Tien, in basically optimal training conditions, with roughly equal opponents to spar with and an excellent mentor, got only a 20x increase over 2/3 of a year. Take away the 10G gravity, and that drops to just 2x, take away the sparring partners (Chaozu wouldn't have been a great sparring partner in my opinion) and the mentor, and that reduces it to about 2x per year of training.

So Tien now has 3 years to train, which is a 6x increase, pushing him to around 216,000 by the time of Cell's appearance. And that's about an upper limit, maybe a little more. No stronger than 300,000 in my opinion, and no weaker than about 100,000 either.

To reach 16 million from his return from Kai's at my calculated 36,000 that's a 444.444....x increase in power over three years. Normal training has absolutely never been shown to be that successful, it's only zenkais and transformations that have provided increases in power anything near that. Regular training can only get you so far.

Additionally, I have an issue with SSJ3 Gotenks being stronger than Ultimate Gohan. It seems to be implied that he's the strongest warrior ever at the time he fights Super Boo, and Gotenks merely sits back to watch for the most part, both of which imply that Gohan is quite a ways stronger than Gotenks at this point. Boo, Gotenks absorbed, would be 52 billion if you're doing the whole 14 + 36 thing, so you could easily buff Gohan up to 40-45 billion and still have things play out like they did.

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USSJed

You do make a good argument, but listen to this.


Firstly, out of Goku's 158 days the first 40 was simply getting used to the gravity by chasing Bubbles. He was PL 300 while weighted at that point, Tien was power level 1830, which makes him 6x stronger then Goku, and so he would take 1/6 the time to catch bubbles right? Thats six days. I worked it out with a DBZ timeline, that leaves Tien 304 days to train with King Kai. Your theory of the bulk of the power increase coming from the x10 gravity boost leads me to believe you think Goku got 4,001 or more of his 8,000 post King Kai power level from that. King Kai is an amazing trainer, and saying that he would increase Goku's power level by less then 4,000 in 118 days is crazy.

Anyway going by your theory, Tien would reach power level 4001+ in the first six days(although it could be more, that does sound a little odd) which leaves King Kai three hundred and four days to train Tien. As far as I know, a large amount of Goku's training with King Kai after the 40 day gravity thing was learning the Kaoken and Spirit Bomb. King Kai didn't do that with Tien, so he would be focusing entirely on just increasing power level. Unlike Goku, Tien had Yamcha to train with for 150 of those 310 days, it would take Yamcha something like 1/4 the time it took Goku to get used to the gravity, so lets say 10 days. Which leaves 140 days to train with a sparring partner under one of the greatest masters in the heavens.

As I mentioned before, I believe the majority of the time spent training with King Kai for Goku was in learning the Spirit Bomb and Kaoken. I am not the type to say and not prove, so take a look at a couple other times people trained under a master.

Master Roshi

Started September 14 749
Ended May 6 750
Time:240 days
Goku:10-124, thats a 12x in 240 days

Now I will admit this is debatable, as there is no power level for Goku before this except his apparant "10" at the start of Dragon Ball. I cannot remember what happened during the Pre Roshi Training segment of DB, but perhaps Goku got stronger?

Karin


Started May 12 750
Ended May 15 750
Time:3 days
Goku:124-157, thats a a 24% increase in 3 days.

Kami(+6 months of individual training)


Started Sometime in March(Let's say March 15 for averageness) 750
Ended November 3 750
Time:150 days with Kami, 78 on own
Tien:250-1830, 732% increase in 228 days
Yamcha:174-1400(?) ,804% increase in 228 days
Krillin:206-1600(thats a guess, based that he is stronger than Yamcha and weaker than Tien, I cannot remember proper level) 770% increase in 228 days

And King Kai in an effing God. He is far superior to Kami and Co. 2000% increase in half a year. Now before you mention gravity again, I do have one more worthwhile thing to mention about it. Raditz, he was a "Top Class Warrior", as a Saiyan he would have trained in x10 gravity his whole life, and where did it get him? Power Level "1500" according to the Daizenshuu.

As for a x6 in three years training on own, Piccolo managed a x8.75 in 150 days solitary, 138 days with Gohan(who is much weaker, and would actually slow him down for most if not all of that)

Here's my quick guess using the newly acquired information. Keep in mind this is with the assumption that alot of King Kai's training with Goku was focused on teaching him spirit bomb and Kaoken, I put it at 33% of his training was the teaching of these two techniques, and 66% being actual training + the effect's of learning the techniques under x10 gravity.


Tien(Battle with Saiyans) 1830
Tien(Training with King Kai completed) 5500% in a year with king kai, x1.5 for sparring partner(guess) 150,975
Training at x8.75 for 5 years(Destruction of Namek till arrival of Androids)
End of Year 1 1,321,031
End of Year 2 11,559,023
End of Year 3 101,141,455
End of Year 4 884,987,731
End of Year 5 7,743,642,654

Ok, so that gets a little ridiculous. The 5500% in a year with King Kai comes from 118 days x2(4000%) and add 33% because King Kai did not teach Kaoken or Spirit Bomb, but rather increased power level. I x1.5 for a sparring partner because he only could train with Yamcha for half the time. The x8.75 may be a bit much, but Piccolo did it with a much weaker Gohan, Tien could plausibly pull off a x3 with Chaotzu in my opinion.

Tien(Battle with Saiyans) 1830
Tien(Training with King Kai completed) 5500% in a year with king kai, x1.5 for sparring partner(guess) 150,975
Training at x3 for 5 years(Destruction of Namek till arrival of Androids)
End of Year 1 452,925
End of Year 2 1,358,775
End of Year 3 4,076,325
End of Year 4 12,228,975
End of Year 5 36,686,925

And one final one, removing the 33% of King Kai's training was teaching Kaoken and Spirit Bomb. This one assumes King Kai spent 118 days training Goku and then he instantly learned the techniques. I use this retarded one to get the a very low number, which there is no way Tien is this strength or weaker, just to show how stupid the idea of Tien=300,000 at Cell Saga idea is.

Tien(Battle with Saiyans) 1830
Tien(Training with King Kai completed) 4000% in a year with king kai, x1.3 for sparring partner(guess) 95,160
Training at x2 for 5 years(Destruction of Namek till arrival of Androids)
End of Year 1 190,320
End of Year 2 380,640
End of Year 3 761,280
End of Year 4 1,522,560
End of Year 5 3,045,120


See what I am getting at, even though these numbers are probably wrong, you should be able to see that Tien could theoretically reach 16 million in the allotted time. Or even if you refuse to believe that, there is no doubting that Tien at least breaks the Power Level One Million mark.

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USSJed

I know double posting is bad, but *bleeped for their protection* does it all the time. I decided to make a second list, one that puts the levels as low as possible, and keeps the SSJ Boosts the same.

Attack of Robot Frieza

Super Goku 162 million
-Base Goku 12 million
-Super Saiyan Boost 150 million
Super Trunks 154 million
-Base Trunks 4 million
-Super Saiyan Boost 150 million
King Cold 130 million
Mecha Frieza 125 million


Battle with Android 19

Super Goku 185 million
-Base Goku 35 million
-Super Saiyan Boost 150 million
-Sick 130 million
-Post Kamehameha90 million
-Very Sick 60 million

Android #19 90 million
-Damaged by Goku 60 million
-Kamehameha drained100 million
-Goku's energy drained105 million
-Damaged by Vegeta005 million
-Vegeta's energy drained105 million

Super Vegeta 205 million
-Base Vegeta 55 million
-Super Saiyan Boost 150 million
-Weakened Vegeta 120 million

Android #20 130 million

Battle With #20

Piccolo 170 million
-Weighted20 million

Android #20 130 million
-Big bang attack drain145 million
-Piccolo's energy drain155 million

Battle with #17/#18

Android 16 340 million

Android 17 240 million

Android #18 210 million

Super Vegeta 205 million
-Base Vegeta 55 million
-Super Saiyan Boost 150 million

Trunks 166 million
-Base Trunks 16 million
-Super Saiyan Boost 150 million

Piccolo 170 million

Tien 12 million

Piccolo owns Cell

Super Piccolo 240 million

Imperfect Cell 220 million

Cell absorbs #17

Android #16 340 million

Imperfect Cell 320 million
-Semi Perfect Cell 400 million

Super Piccolo 240 million

Battle with Semiperfect Cell

Super Vegeta 480 million
-Base Vegeta 130 million
-Super Saiyan Boost 150 million
-Super Saiyan 2nd Grade 350 million *active

Semi Perfect Cell 420 million
(Powered up)

Tien 12 million
-Kikoho Attack380 million

Battle with Perfect Cell

Perfect Cell 550 million
(Not used to body)
Super Trunks 560 million
-Base Trunks 110 million
-Super Saiyan Boost 150 million
-Super Saiyan 2nd Grade 350 million
-Super Saiyan 3rd Grade 450 million *active
Super Vegeta 480 million
-Base Vegeta 130 million
-Super Saiyan Boost 150 million
-Super Saiyan 2nd Grade 350 million *active
Final Flash Attack 700 million

Cell Games, Cell VS Goku

Perfect Cell 1 billion
(Not trying)

Super Goku 1 billion
-Base Goku 400 million
-Mastered Super Saiyan 600 million
-Teleport kamehameha2 billion

Hercule 75

Cell Games, Cell VS Gohan

Perfect Cell 1.2 billion
(Full)

Super Gohan 1.5 billion
-Base Gohan 900 million
-Mastered Super Saiyan 600 million

Cell Games, Finale

Perfect Cell 1.2 billion
-Super Perfect 2.2 billion

Cell Jr 500 million

Super Gohan 2.4 billion
-Base Gohan 900 million
-Mastered Super Saiyan 600 million
-Ascended Super Saiyan 1.5 billion *active

Super Trunks 570 million
-Base Trunks 220 million
-Super Saiyan Boost 150 million
-Super Saiyan 2nd Grade 350 million *active
-Super Saiyan 3rd Grade 450 million

Super Vegeta 600 million
-Base Vegeta 250 million
-Super Saiyan Boost 150 million
-Super Saiyan 2nd Grade 350 million *active

Piccolo 450 million(guess, theres no evidence for any level...)

Krillin 400,000 (guess, don't care about Krillins PL)

Yamcha 200,000 (guess, really don't care about Yamcha's PL)

20 somethinth Budokai

Goten 150.1 million
-Base Goten 100,000
-Super Saiyan Boost 150 million


Trunks 150.12 million
-Base Trunks 120,000
-Super Saiyan Boost 150 million

Battle with Dabura

Dabura 2.2 billion

Piccolo 600 million

Kibito 500 million

Krillin 100,000

Battle with Majin Fighters
Vegeta(base) 1.2 billion

Pui Pui 400 million

Goku Up to 2.8 billion
-Base Goku 1.3 billion
-Mastered Super Saiyan 600 million
-Super Saiyan 2 1.5 billion

Yakon 800 million

Super Gohan 1.8 billion
-Base Gohan 300 million
-Mastered Super Saiyan 600million *active
-Ascended Super Saiyan 1.5 billion *active

Dabura 2.2 billion

Ultimate Rematch

Goku 2.8 billion
-Base Goku 1.3 billion
-Mastered Super Saiyan 600 million
-Super Saiyan 2 1.5 billion *active

Vegeta 2.9 billion
-Base Vegeta 1.2 million
-Majin Base Vegeta 1.4 billion
-Mastered Super Saiyan 600 million
-Super Saiyan 2 1.5 billion *active

Super Gohan 1.8 billion
-Base Gohan 300 million
-Mastered Super Saiyan 600 billion
-Ascended Super Saiyan 1.5 billion

Supreme Kai 500 million

Dabura 2.2 billion

Babidi 50

Buu's first appearance

Majin Buu 2 billion
-Powered Up 2.8 billion

Dabura 2.2 billion

Super Gohan 1.8 billion
-Base Gohan 300 million
-Mastered Super Saiyan 600 billion
-Ascended Super Saiyan 1.5 billion

Supreme Kai 500 million

Majin Vegeta VS Buu

Majin Buu 2.8 billion
-Angry 3.3 billion

Vegeta 2.9 billion
-Base Vegeta 1.2 million
-Majin Base Vegeta 1.4 billion
-Mastered Super Saiyan 600 million
-Super Saiyan 2 1.5 billion *active

Vegeta's Explosion 8 billion

SSJ3 VS Majin Buu

Majin Buu 3.3 billion

Goku 4.3 billion
-Base Goku 1.3 billion
-Mastered Super Saiyan 600 million
-Super Saiyan 2 1.5 billion
-Super Saiyan 3 3 billion *active

Birth of Gotenks

Gotenks 2.6 billion
-Base Gotenks 2 billion
-Super Saiyan (x2) 600 million*unused?

Appearance of Super Buu

Majin Buu 3.3 billion
-Angry 4 billion
-Very Angry 5 billion

Mr Buu 2 billion

Grey Buu 3 billion

Super Buu 5 billion

Gotenks VS Buu, ultimate showdown

Gotenks 6-7.2-12 billion
-Base Gotenks 6 billion
-Mastered SSJ (x2) 1.2 billion*active
-Super Saiyan 2 (x2) 3 billion *never shown
-Super Saiyan 3 (x2) 6 billion*active

Super Buu 7 billion

Gohan VS Buu

Super Buu 7 billion
-Z fighters absorbed 19.6 billion

Mystic Gohan 15 billion

Tien, Savior of Mankind

Gotenks Buu 19.6 billion
-Piccolo Buu 7.6 billion

Dende 10

Tien 35 million

Tien's Kikoho 15 billion

Appearance of yet another rigged fusion character

Super Buu 7 billion
-Gohan Buu 22 billion

Vegetto 43.2 billion
-Base Vegetto 42 billion
-Mastered Super Saiyan 1.2 billion*active
-Super Saiyan 2 3 billion*not shown
-Super Saiyan 3 6 billion*not shown


Battle with the "strongest" Buu

Kid Buu 3 billion

Human's Spirit Bomb Mega Billion's

End

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USSJed

Oh come on, at least read the first one, the second one is merely a list for those who are not afraid to explore other possibilities of power levels. I assure you, it is completely possible that both Tien can reach 1 million(at the LEAST), and that SSJ could be a boost instead of a multiplier.

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remixremix

I think your list is preetty good since i agree with most of the things with you........especially about the tien part and the boost

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USSJed

I like your enthusiasm for the idea, but no one should take it to be truth until all the counter arguments have been dealt with.

I dislike ignorance, and if there was sufficient evidence that it was wrong then I would not want anyone thinking otherwise. However, I have been waiting for 20 hours, I expected something by now...

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SRP76

No. "Mastered" Super Saiyan is Super Saiyan. Same form. Not 10x stronger.

And the fact that you have to claim that "the additive keeps changing" proves that this doesn't work. At all.

USSJed

Two things wrong with that.

1. Mastered Super Saiyan is much stronger than regular, I thought it was the same, until 50 people screamed "ITS FUCKING STRONGER"
This is backed up by the fact that MSSJ Goku at 50% is higher than Vegeta, and also if the boost was not higher than Vegeta's 2nd Grade SSJ, why would it be declared better in every way by everyone?

2. Thats the old list, that list was made with the idea that
SSJ Boost=150,000,000
But with training it can reach a much higher level
Maximum SSJ Boost=1,500,000,000
And won't ever exceed it. Even that idea is better than a decreasing multiplier.

I made a new list if you would care to read it, in this list the additive stays the same throughout, and mastered SSJ is only 2x stronger.

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SRP76

Regardless of how many people "scream" whatever, the manga states that they are Super Saiyans. Manga >>>>>>> a billion screaming people, ever day.

Goku and Gohan are stronger because they're just better than Vegeta and Trunks. That's the whole point of DB and DBZ. They train together, they get stronger than anyone else. Plot calls for power boosts, they get them more than the others.