Where do you place base fusions - Page 2

**Majuub** · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Vegeta

Oh, I get your point now. You were takin the power increases from GT into account when you were squaring base Gogeta off with SSJ4 Goku, and using the multiplier similiar in the Buu saga, just with more powerful fighters, right? If so, I see your point completely. Since SSJ Goku is more powerful then SSJ3 Goku (Z) their Gogeta or Vegito fusion would be above any higher level of SSJ with a lesser form because they're more powerful.

I understand it.

Not bad as an explanation huh? Even if you disagree I don't mind. As long as I told you and you understand my point. Thanks for the comments by the way.

Edit: Exactly, if Gotenks got much stronger with Goten and Trunks not gaining any significant power I believe if Goku gets much stronger, than Gogeta will get a load of power that can't be even described.

uki1234 · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkprince410

Considering there's no verifiable evidence to support this? The potara fusion is simply said to be better or superior to the fusion dance, but it's far more likely that it's due to the combination of how easy it is to use them, as well as the inherent increase of strength of the fusion due to the fighters not needing to synch their battle powers.

There's nothing that actually says that the potara fusion is stronger than the fusion dance.

There is. Vegeto was far surprised how strong he became, and Goku knew about how much stronger they can become after fusion, and he was still surprised. That tells something obviously.

And Gohan Buu said that they are going to be no match for him, even if they fuse. And he knew about fusions power increases.

**Majuub** · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

There is. Vegeto was far surprised how strong he became, and Goku knew about how much stronger they can become after fusion, and he was still surprised. That tells something obviously.

And Gohan Buu said that they are going to be no match for him, even if they fuse. And he knew about fusions power increases.

Vegeto was suprised by how strong he became?? When?? I didn't know that.

Shin Buu(Gohan absorbed) still thought he had a chance against Vegeto even if he was getting thrashed. He took some time to accept he wasn't the most powerful warrior in the universe. It was just like Gotenks who didn't go SSJ3 right away even if Shin Buu could have killed him effortlessly. That's cockiness and over-confidence at its purest form, nothing else.

Shin Buu knew about the fusion increase since he saw Trunks and Goten performed it and he experienced their power. With that said, he knew if Goku and Vegeta were to fuse they could go SSJ3 as he saw Trunks and Goten do that. Knowing they could go SSJ3, he still thought they would be no match for him. He knows nothing about their power, he was just too cocky because he thought he was now invicible.

Evil Vegeta · 05-11-2008

Buu even thought he was going to win the battle after they transformed into Super Vegito. He's shown he can sense chi, but that obviously didn't matter.

**Majuub** · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Vegeta

Buu even thought he was going to win the battle after they transformed into Super Vegito. He's shown he can sense chi, but that obviously didn't matter.

Isn't it like the 5th debate of Potara vs Fusion in just 3 weeks? If he wants to argue, we can just bump and old thread because that one isn't meant for that.

uki1234 · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Majuub

Vegeto was suprised by how strong he became?? When?? I didn't know that.

Shin Buu(Gohan absorbed) still thought he had a chance against Vegeto even if he was getting thrashed. He took some time to accept he wasn't the most powerful warrior in the universe. It was just like Gotenks who didn't go SSJ3 right away even if Shin Buu could have killed him effortlessly. That's cockiness and over-confidence at its purest form, nothing else.

Shin Buu knew about the fusion increase since he saw Trunks and Goten performed it and he experienced their power. With that said, he knew if Goku and Vegeta were to fuse they could go SSJ3 as he saw Trunks and Goten do that. Knowing they could go SSJ3, he still thought they would be no match for him. He knows nothing about their power, he was just too cocky because he thought he was now invicible.

So SSJ Gogeta would be weaker than Gohan Buu, but SSJ Vegeto kicks his ass without any real effort.

"still thought he had a chance against Vegeto even if he was getting thrashed."

Cos he has candy, healing factor, absorbing technique...

"With that said, he knew if Goku and Vegeta were to fuse they could go SSJ3 as he saw Trunks and Goten do that. "
There is no evidence to suport this since Vegeta can't go SSJ3.

Evil Vegeta · 05-11-2008

None is needed, because neither Trunks or Goten can transform into SSJ3, or SSJ2 for that matter. We know that Goku can transform into SSJ3, and that Vegeta can transform into SSJ2; that means there should be more of a chance for Vegito to reach SSJ3 then Gotenks.

Yes, this debate seems endless.

uki1234 · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Vegeta

None is needed, because neither Trunks or Goten can transform into SSJ3, or SSJ2 for that matter. We know that Goku can transform into SSJ3, and that Vegeta can transform into SSJ2; that means there should be more of a chance for Vegito to reach SSJ3 then Gotenks.

Yes, this debate seems endless.

Trunks and Goten cant go SSJ3 cos they dont have power required. BUT Goku thought them how a saiyan can go SSJ3, so as soon as they fused and got enough power required they went SSJ3.

Vegeta however doesn't know technique how to go SSJ3.

**Majuub** · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by uki1234

So SSJ Gogeta would be weaker than Gohan Buu, but SSJ Vegeto kicks his ass without any real effort.

"still thought he had a chance against Vegeto even if he was getting thrashed."

Cos he has candy, healing factor, absorbing technique...

"With that said, he knew if Goku and Vegeta were to fuse they could go SSJ3 as he saw Trunks and Goten do that. "
There is no evidence to suport this since Vegeta can't go SSJ3.

Sorry but that's a fanslation which can't be used in a canon debate. That's just a scan taken from that Bleach site.

In my version(French) Vegeto said: Ne t'inquiètes pas, moi-même je suis impressioné par ma puissance''

Literally: ''Don't worry, even I, am suprised by my power''

Vegeto's goal was to get absorbed by Shin Buu in order to free the others. In order to do so, he had to push Shin Buu to absorb him. He played a mind game with him by teasing him and provoking him, that fight was also psychological as Vegeto was slapping him around and was beating him without his hands. He only used his legs. Even when he was turned into a candy he was still winning. The fact he said he was suprised by his power is just another way to tease Buu and use cockiness as a bait to get absorbed. Also, Vegeto is a fusion, even Gotenks said he was impressed by his own power after he did his Buu Buu volley-ball on Shin Buu. Still, it doesn't mean the fusion of Goten and Trunks held any particular increase. It's just sheer boasting.

Goten and Trunks weren't even able to go SSJ2 prior to the fusion, I'm not even sure they're MSSJ's. Even after the fusion they couldn't go SSJ2 or SSJ3, still Gotenks was able to easily access and even hold his SSJ3 state. With that said, if SSJ Goten and Trunks can go SSJ3 while fused, I see no reason for Vegeto to not be able to do the same. Also, Shin Buu knew both could go SSJ2, there is no difference, he still thought their SSJ2
state was no match for them.

Edit: No, Goku never thaught the kids how to go SSJ3, he said they did it just by watching him and he was suprised. Vegeta also saw him go SSJ3 and as Goku is part of Vegeto and he knows SSJ3 and Vegeta knows SSJ2 that completely kills your point. Neither Trunks nor Goten could go SSJ2, now for Vegeto one knows SSJ3 and the other knows SSJ3 and yet they can't go SSJ3 while fused?? Goten and Trunks didn't know the technic to go SSJ3 neither, they just saw it, Vegeta is smarter and a better fighter than them, so if they can copy it while fused, surely he can do the same.

Evil Vegeta · 05-11-2008

Did Goku really believe Gotenks would go SSJ3? He seemed awfully surprised when he saw them as SSJ3. Goku just thought SSJ Gotenks would be all that's required to stop Majin Buu.

uki1234 · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Majuub

Sorry but that's a fanslation which can't be used in a canon debate. That's just a scan taken from that Bleach site.

In my version(French) Vegeto said: Ne t'inquiètes pas, moi-même je suis impressioné par ma puissance''

Literally: ''Don't worry, even I, am suprised by my power''

Vegeto's goal was to get absorbed by Shin Buu in order to free the others. In order to do so, he had to push Shin Buu to absorb him. He played a mind game with him by teasing him and provoking him, that fight was also psychological as Vegeto was slapping him around and was beating him without his hands. He only used his legs. Even when he was turned into a candy he was still winning. The fact he said he was suprised by his power is just another way to tease Buu and use cockiness as a bait to get absorbed. Also, Vegeto is a fusion, even Gotenks said he was impressed by his own power after he did his Buu Buu volley-ball on Shin Buu. Still, it doesn't mean the fusion of Goten and Trunks held any particular increase. It's just sheer boasting.

Goten and Trunks weren't even able to go SSJ2 prior to the fusion, I'm not even sure they're MSSJ's. Even after the fusion they couldn't go SSJ2 or SSJ3, still Gotenks was able to easily access and even hold his SSJ3 state. With that said, if SSJ Goten and Trunks can go SSJ3 while fused, I see no reason for Vegeto to not be able to do the same. Also, Shin Buu knew both could go SSJ2, there is no difference, he still thought their SSJ2
state was no match for them.

Edit: No, Goku never thaught the kids how to go SSJ3, he said they did it just by watching him and he was suprised. Vegeta also saw him go SSJ3 and as Goku is part of Vegeto and he knows SSJ3 and Vegeta knows SSJ2 that completely kills your point. Neither Trunks nor Goten could go SSJ2, now for Vegeto one knows SSJ3 and the other knows SSJ3 and yet they can't go SSJ3 while fused?? Goten and Trunks didn't know the technic to go SSJ3 neither, they just saw it, Vegeta is smarter and a better fighter than them, so if they can copy it while fused, surely he can do the same.

I'm pretty sure Viz has almost identical quote.

''Don't worry, even I, am suprised by my power''

Thank you for proving my point.

"Vegeto's goal was to get absorbed by Shin Buu in order to free the others."

Thats why he didn't kill him in 2 sec. He didn't have to use any psycho games at all. He only have to trash Buu enough for Buu to realize that the only option for him to win is absorption, and then he gave him 10sec.

"Gotenks said he was impressed" Gotenks is soooooooo much cockier than Vegeto so no point taken.

The difference is that Gotenks had days of practicing to go SSJ3, while Vegeto had none. No one said that just because you are SSJ2, you can easier go SSJ3.

**Majuub** · 05-11-2008

Quote:

I'm pretty sure Viz has almost identical quote.

''Don't worry, even I, am suprised by my power''

Thank you for proving my point.

Just like with Gotenks. He expected to beat Shin Buu easily but maybe not with so much ease.

"Vegeto's goal was to get absorbed by Shin Buu in order to free the others."

Quote:

Thats why he didn't kill him in 2 sec. He didn't have to use any psycho games at all. He only have to trash Buu enough for Buu to realize that the only option for him to win is absorption, and then he gave him 10sec.

I suppose that's why he was beating him only with his legs? That's also why he was teasing him all along? That's also why he was counting to 10? He beat him without his hands because he wanted to show how strong he was compared to Buu, he wanted to show how weak was Buu compared to him. When SSJ3 Gotenks was fighting Shin Buu, Piccolo said Shin Buu's body wasn't damage much but his mind was damaged because he never fought someone that strong(Psychological). The same works here, Vegeto hadn't to count to 10 because he had no intention to kill Shin Buu, he did that to scare him and force him to absorb him. Fear is the psychological factor he used to get his goal accomplished.

Quote:

"Gotenks said he was impressed" Gotenks is soooooooo much cockier than Vegeto so no point taken.

Vegeto is also extremely cocky, less than Gotenks but we can't say he's not cocky to a point we can't aknowledge it.

Quote:

The difference is that Gotenks had days of practicing to go SSJ3, while Vegeto had none. No one said that just because you are SSJ2, you can easier go SSJ3.

No one said just becaue you are SSJ you can go SSJ2 easier. That wasn't too intelligent...no offense.

Gotenks hadn't days to train in the ROSAT. At first the kids mastered the fusion and were focusing on defeating Fat Buu and only Fat Buu. They trained for about 6 days in the ROSAT, that isn't much. The point is, in Vegeto, one of them knows SSJ3 and the other knows SSJ2 perfectly, with Gotenks none of them knows how to go at least SSJ2. I think just that fact can compensate for the 6 days of training. Even if it doesn't, Shin Buu knew Goku and Vegeta could go SSJ2 while fused and he still thought they'd be no match for him.

uki1234 · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Majuub

Just like with Gotenks. He expected to beat Shin Buu easily but maybe not with so much ease.

"Vegeto's goal was to get absorbed by Shin Buu in order to free the others."

I suppose that's why he was beating him only with his legs? That's also why he was teasing him all along? That's also why he was counting to 10? He beat him without his hands because he wanted to show how strong he was compared to Buu, he wanted to show how weak was Buu compared to him. When SSJ3 Gotenks was fighting Shin Buu, Piccolo said Shin Buu's body wasn't damage much but his mind was damaged because he never fought someone that strong(Psychological). The same works here, Vegeto hadn't to count to 10 because he had no intention to kill Shin Buu, he did that to scare him and force him to absorb him. Fear is the psychological factor he used to get his goal accomplished.

Vegeto is also extremely cocky, less than Gotenks but we can't say he's not cocky to a point we can't aknowledge it.

No one said just becaue you are SSJ you can go SSJ2 easier. That wasn't too intelligent...no offense.

Gotenks hadn't days to train in the ROSAT. At first the kids mastered the fusion and were focusing on defeating Fat Buu and only Fat Buu. They trained for about 6 days in the ROSAT, that isn't much. The point is, in Vegeto, one of them knows SSJ3 and the other knows SSJ2 perfectly, with Gotenks none of them knows how to go at least SSJ2. I think just that fact can compensate for the 6 days of training. Even if it doesn't, Shin Buu knew Goku and Vegeta could go SSJ2 while fused and he still thought they'd be no match for him.

"He expected to beat Shin Buu easily but maybe not with so much ease. "

Which means that potara fusion makes it far easier than normal. Thanks for proving my point again.
As far as we know he probably thought to beat buu as a SSJ2 Gogeta, so he was surprised that he was wining as a MSSJ.

Piccolo's statements in Buu saga aren't much reliable, since we see that he's lost his mind a little bit.

Ofc that Vegeto did all those stuff to prove his superiority against Buu, but that doesn't mean that he was making up stuff, just to scare him.

"No one said just becaue you are SSJ you can go SSJ2 easie"
That comparison sucks cos you need SSJ to go SSJ2, while you don't need SSJ2 to go SSJ3. So again the fact that Vegeta is SSJ2 doesn't help him at all with going SSJ3.

This whole argument about Base Gogeta > SSJ3 Gotenks, falls in water if we take in argument that Vegeta isn't much stronger than Trunks at all. He would have to be like x times stronger to make his fusion with Goku stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks(if we take x to be SSJ3 multiplier). Now in most lists x>50, and we know that there is no chance in hell that Vegeta is 5, not 50 times stronger than Trunks.

Devilz · 05-11-2008

I lol @ uki1234 who thinks Gotenks can go SSJ3 but not Vegito.

And I'm always going to have Potara >>> Dance, because it only depends on your interpretation of Kai's statement.

uki1234 · 05-11-2008

There is no indication that if only one char knows a technique, a fused char knows it as well.

05-11-2008	#30 (permalink)
uki1234 (19) Mastered Super Saiyan Join Date: May 2008 Location: Belgrade, Serbia Posts: 1,190 Rep Power: 6	Re: Where do you place base fusions There is no indication that if only one char knows a technique, a fused char knows it as well.