How can the Kaioken times three exist? - Page 6

JC#1 · 05-16-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC#1

IDK wtf you're talking about. Kaioken x3 makes someone with a pl of 1 achieve a pl of 3, its simple. Don't know what you mean with folds, but it multiplies the base power by the number the Kaioken uses. So kaioken x1 is the only exception, which multiplies by 1.5 (I think...) so that if you had a pl of 1 and used kaioken, you're level would be 1.5.

quoting myslf because noone seems to be paying attention.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · 05-17-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaio

It didn't start at that; his scouter was detecting raising power before it reached 90,000; it was just the first number Ginyu mentioned. There's a separate box that shows his scouter detecting it before the next box, which is of him being startled and saying "90,000?".

That's how the scene plays out. He's smirking, the scouter shows a number, and he immediately gets surprised and says, "9-90,000...!?" That seems to imply that the first number it displayed was 90,000. I don't see why you would assume it showed a number lower than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaio

The Daizenshuu also agrees that Goku was 20% stronger that Frieza, which is obviously wrong; saying kaio-ken and kaio-ken x2 are the same makes no sense.

How do you know how much of a strength difference there was between them? Regardless, I was just pointing out that an outside source agrees with me, a source that has far more say in the matter than you do.

And I never said Kaiô-Ken and Kaiô-Ken x2 were the same thing, I was pointing out that Kaiô-Ken doubles your power. It's stated in narration, and it's shown with Goku's power up against Ginyu.

JC#1 · 05-17-2008

so why exactly can't K3 exist?????????

Evil Vegeta · 05-17-2008

It does. Kaioken x2 doesn't, since it's the basic Kaioken.

JC#1 · 05-17-2008

how is K2 the basic Kaioken???

Evil Vegeta · 05-17-2008

Both do no more then double Goku's power is how.

JC#1 · 05-17-2008

Maybe K2 doubles it and K1 multiplies it by 1.5, which was my original theory. I'm just trying to figure out why nobody was listening to me, so I'm giving info bit-by-bit by asking questions, receiving and then mixing and releasing info in each post.

Evil Vegeta · 05-17-2008

Well, since the text stated that Goku's basic Kaioken was doubling his power against Vegeta, it's not a 1.5x increase.

Darkprince410 · 05-17-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC#1

Maybe K2 doubles it and K1 multiplies it by 1.5, which was my original theory. I'm just trying to figure out why nobody was listening to me, so I'm giving info bit-by-bit by asking questions, receiving and then mixing and releasing info in each post.

As said, the manga clearly indicates that the regular Kaiou-ken doubled Gokuu's battle power whenever he used it, both during the Saiya-jin Saga and later on during his confrontation with Ginyu.

JC#1 · 05-17-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Vegeta

Well, since the text stated that Goku's basic Kaioken was doubling his power against Vegeta, it's not a 1.5x increase.

That text box said He couldn't beat Vegeta "even when DOUBLING his power with the kaioken technique" and it was talking about the K2 Goku used against Vegeta. "Kaioken technique" doesn't necessarily mean K1, its just a general term for the Kaioken, with whatver multiplier it uses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkprince410

As said, the manga clearly indicates that the regular Kaiou-ken doubled Gokuu's battle power whenever he used it, both during the Saiya-jin Saga and later on during his confrontation with Ginyu.

I don't remember that in the Ginyu part...If Goku said "Kaioken" and Ginyu read a power level twice as large, it is possible he was really using K2

Darkprince410 · 05-17-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC#1

That text box said He couldn't beat Vegeta "even when DOUBLING his power with the kaioken technique" and it was talking about the K2 Goku used against Vegeta. "Kaioken technique" doesn't necessarily mean K1, its just a general term for the Kaioken, with whatver multiplier it uses.

However, this text box happens to be in the very chapter that the "Kaiou-ken 2x" is actually referred to by name, and occurs after that particular page of the manga. As such, he could have only been using the regular Kaiou-ken.

Quote:

I don't remember that in the Ginyu part...If Goku said "Kaioken" and Ginyu read a power level twice as large, it is possible he was really using K2

Any time Gokuu verbally announces Kaiou-ken prior to or while using it, if he's using a form above the regular Kaiou-ken (Kaiou-ken 3x or Kaiou-ken 4x), he'll always add the number to it to denote if it is in fact a higher form or not. Since he only specifically said "Kaiou-ken", it's denoting that it was only the initial Kaiou-ken state, yet the battle power increase was double.

JC#1 · 05-17-2008

Oh, well then I guess there can always be a small difference between K1 and K2, like maybe K2 multiplies by 2.something as K1 multiplies by 2, and then K3 is 3 and everything above is multiplied by the number. Either that, or K2 doesn't exist. Or there is a difference between K1 and K2 that is not the power level, like K1 does strength while K2 does speed or something lame like that.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · 05-17-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkprince410

Since he only specifically said "Kaiou-ken", it's denoting that it was only the initial Kaiou-ken state, yet the battle power increase was double.

Yep. Here are the relevant images, for anyone who's interested.

Image (1)

(1) "H-he's so strong! I can't break free...! Th-there's no choice... I've gotta use Kaiô-Ken to break free...!!!"

Goku is clearly weaker than Captain Ginyu.

Image (2)

(2) "W-we never even stood a chance against this guy... Even Captain Ginyu's highest battle rating is 120,000... How could a Saiyan be... this strong...?"

Captain Ginyu's battle power is 120,000, as said by Jheese.

Image (3)

(3) "Heh heh heh... I don't even have to look at my scouter. It'll probably only go up to 85,000..."

Captain Ginyu estimates Goku's max battle power to be around 85,000, after fighting with him that whole fight (while Goku was in base, Image (1)). Ginyu is one of the top fighters in the universe (probably the second strongest before Goku comes along), so he should be able to make an accurate estimation of someone's battle power. If his guess is to be believed, it means Goku's base is at least 85,000, but lower than 120,000. Besides, if Goku's power was, say, 60,000 like Ginyu initially guessed, Goku wouldn't have stood a chance.

Image (4)

(4) Here's where Goku uses Kaiô-Ken. Ginyu's scouter picks up a battle power, and the first number he reads off is "90,000." This leads me to believe that he started at 90,000. Then...

Image (5)

(5) Goku's power passes Ginyu's own 120,000, and ends up at 180,000. The fact that his first reading is 90,000, he ends up at 180,000 and that the narrator during the Vegeta fight said Goku doubled his power using the initial Kaiô-Ken technique (which Goku is using here) all lead me to conclude that his base battle power was indeed 90,000.

Image (6)

(6) Hell, it doesn't hurt that the Daizenshuu levels agree with me!

**LegendarySSJ7** · 05-17-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chibi Mystic Gohan

(6) Hell, it doesn't hurt that the Daizenshuu levels agree with me!

The Daizenshuu covers the general ranges well, but ultimately, when lapses in judgment like Goku's battle power (being 8,000 against Nappa when it was expressly stated to have been over 8,000) were made, I'd say it's a vague guide at best (but I suppose you could contest that the Daizenshuu wasn't referencing his full power, sans Kaio-ken in tandem).

(EDIT - as Madness said, they could have been rounding the numbers off for simplicity's sake, but I would say that it's not the best guide for meticulous analyzations).

As for Kaio-ken x3, Kaio-ken x2 is just an opulent (or technical) name for run-in-the-mill Kaio-ken. So Kaio-ken x3 is just a technical name, at core.

Madness · 05-17-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendarySSJ7

The Daizenshuu covers the general ranges well, but ultimately, when lapses in judgment like Goku's battle power (being 8,000 against Nappa when it was expressly stated to have been over 8,000) were made, I'd say it's a vague guide at best (but I suppose you could contest that the Daizenshuu wasn't referencing his full power, sans Kaio-ken in tandem).

You could also argue that they were rounding off for simplicities sake.

05-17-2008	#78 (permalink)
JC#1 (21) Majin Warrior Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,779 Rep Power: 0	Re: How can the Kaioken times three exist? so why exactly can't K3 exist?????????

05-17-2008	#80 (permalink)
JC#1 (21) Majin Warrior Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,779 Rep Power: 0	Re: How can the Kaioken times three exist? how is K2 the basic Kaioken???

05-17-2008	#82 (permalink)
JC#1 (21) Majin Warrior Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,779 Rep Power: 0	Re: How can the Kaioken times three exist? Maybe K2 doubles it and K1 multiplies it by 1.5, which was my original theory. I'm just trying to figure out why nobody was listening to me, so I'm giving info bit-by-bit by asking questions, receiving and then mixing and releasing info in each post.

05-17-2008	#87 (permalink)
JC#1 (21) Majin Warrior Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,779 Rep Power: 0	Re: How can the Kaioken times three exist? Oh, well then I guess there can always be a small difference between K1 and K2, like maybe K2 multiplies by 2.something as K1 multiplies by 2, and then K3 is 3 and everything above is multiplied by the number. Either that, or K2 doesn't exist. Or there is a difference between K1 and K2 that is not the power level, like K1 does strength while K2 does speed or something lame like that.