Darkprince410

Kaiou-sama: And still 118 days remaining! He may be the one who can master the Kaio-ken...!!!

If Kaiou-sama had himself mastered it before, then there's no reason he would have worded it the way he did, since if Kaiou-sama had himself mastered it, he would have said something more along the lines of "He may be able to master the Kaio-ken...!!!" Yet his wording clearly indicates that prior to Gokuu, no one has ever had the potential to master it.

__________________

Kaio

Explain how yelling something does something for you? Did you forget about people having to focus their dormant ki into an attack? It's not saying "kamehameha" that forms the blast; it's the user consciously focusing their ki into their palms. It's the same with kaio-ken. Goku didn't even say it during the Frieza fight.

You would know that I wasn't if you read what I said about regular kaio-ken.

So. . . what about my other points?

Darkprince410

There's a difference between the Kamehameha and the Kaiou-ken, and even canon wise there's evidence with the Kamehameha disproving your beliefs. Unlike the normal Kaiou-ken, specific numbers have always been given to the Kaiou-ken when verbally activated denoting the level of power that the technique is increasing Gokuu's power by. If there was an instance of Gokuu only saying Kaiou-ken, yet his battle power shooting up three or four times higher than his base form, your claims may have merit, but everytime he simply activates "Kaiou-ken" it only doubles his battle power.

The Kamehameha likewise has the Chou Kamehameha used once at the end of Dragonball. Now though we see that it's simply a Kamehameha with more power, by your beliefs, there should be no need to give it a distinct name. However, Gokuu clearly indicates that it is the Chou Kamehameha, not a regular Kamehameha, denoting it is a more powerful version of the Kamehameha.

__________________

Vagrant Lustoid 2

I think that the calling of the name is a focusing thing for him intially, since he'd only recently learned the technique when he fights Vegeta. Then later on, we see that he doesn't need to shout "Kaio-Ken x10" to use that level, but does need to for x20, which we know he hadn't mastered at all, nor probably even tried before.

Thus, I think that as he learns to master a new plateau of Kaio-Ken, Goku becomes used to the mental processes required and no longer needs the name as a focal effect of a mnemonic of sorts.

This also explains why Kaio-Ken x2 is initially just called Kaio-Ken. Because at that point, he didn't think he'd need to use any greater levels of the technique, and so had merely attached the Kaio-Ken tag to the basic form in his mind for focus. But once he started implementing anything beyond x2, with more than one level involved it may have become necessary for Goku to call out the level until he got used to that level.

Kaio

What about the Ginyu saga?

So what? Just because he indicated that the kamehamehas was clearly different from the regular type by extending it's name doesn't mean that declaring the name of the technique would affect the attack at all. Goku didn't even say "chou kamehameha" or "megahameha" when forming the blast; he just blurted kamehameha, and yet it formed a "chou kamehameha". It wouldn't have mattered if he said the name of the technique or banana, cream filled pie; it's influenced by the user's desired output.

Still doesn't explain why he didn't say kaio-ken x2 against Nappa and Vegeta.

Vagrant Lustoid 2

Because initially he was only ever planning on using x2? And so when implementing the Kaio-Ken there was only ever going to be one option so he didn't need to focus it within his mind?

That's my theory, anyway.

__________________

Chibi Mystic Gohan

What about it? As far as we know (i.e. without speculating at all), his power went from 90,000 to 180,000. That's doubling his power, is it not? It's speculating to say his power may have been lower before that.

__________________


"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

Kaio

So, it's speculation even with Ginyu's readings indicating otherwise? It's speculation that Goku powered up to his maximum through the kaio-ken, or whether it even was his maximum power.

Still doesn't put any logic to why he declared: "kaio-ken" and then "kaio-ken x2" against Vegeta, also making a big deal about how he could hardly even keep up with Vegeta with kaio-ken x2. Or, to why king Kai said not to go beyond double his original power. If regular kaio-ken naturally does that, why would he even bother emphasizing that? Why wouldn't he just say something like: "Just use regular kaio-ken"?

Evil Vegeta

How is Ginyu's reading an indication of somethin else? Goku wasn't even powered-up when he fought Ginyu, so it's very possible that his full base power could've just came up on the scouter as he used the Kaioken. He was suppressing his chi and raising it throughout his battle with Ginyu. That's why Ginyu never could get a clear reading on him, and had to make estimations on it.

__________________

Thanks to Sphinx's badass skills. Yay.

Kaio

If Goku could raise his power [enough to virtually give a knock-out blows in one hit], he would've jumped to his maximum, then did the kaio-ken. It's baseless to assume he didn't, or could even power up to his supposed maximum of 90,000 through the kaio-ken since it's never been done before.

Evil Vegeta

All we know is the first reading is 90,000 on the scouter. We don't know what it is before that. But, again; since Ginyu never used the scouter on him during the battle, couldn't it be possible that the increase of power just began at his base?

__________________

Thanks to Sphinx's badass skills. Yay.

Chibi Mystic Gohan

If he was initially lower than 90,000 in base, wouldn't Ginyu's scouter have picked up on that? Why would it just so happen to start at 90,000, which is half of his base power level?

Plus Ginyu estimated his power to be at 85,000 after seeing his strength. This must have been put in by Toriyama for a reason.

Also, the Daizenshuu agrees that he was at 90,000. The facts are all against you.

__________________


"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

JC#1

IDK wtf you're talking about. Kaioken x3 makes someone with a pl of 1 achieve a pl of 3, its simple. Don't know what you mean with folds, but it multiplies the base power by the number the Kaioken uses. So kaioken x1 is the only exception, which multiplies by 1.5 (I think...) so that if you had a pl of 1 and used kaioken, you're level would be 1.5.

Vagrant Lustoid 2

Because there is no regular kaioken. Kaio-Ken is the moniker of the entire technique. However, because Goku originally only wanted to use it at one level and had no intention of using it any higher, he simply called that plataeu "Kaio-Ken".

__________________

Kaio

It didn't start at that; his scouter was detecting raising power before it reached 90,000; it was just the first number Ginyu mentioned. There's a separate box that shows his scouter detecting it before the next box, which is of him being startled and saying "90,000?".

The Daizenshuu also agrees that Goku was 20% stronger that Frieza, which is obviously wrong; saying kaio-ken and kaio-ken x2 are the same makes no sense.