gad_is_here

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uki1234

lol he used 3x and 4x against Galic Gun. He used "2x" when Vegeta hurled a fireball for which he stated that he intentionally lowered its ki so Goku can dodge it. This also proves kaioken and kaioken 2x to be the same, since Vegeta's fireball had energy enough for Goku kaioken to dodge it easily, and its shown that with 2x its same as it would have been with regular kaioken.

SRP76

"I can't keep up, even with twice the Kaioken." He didn't say "I can't keep up, even with the same Kaioken I used before."

uki1234

twice the kaioken = kaioken 2x, whats your point?

Unruly_Saiyajin

He's saying if Kaioken x2 and Kaioken is the same than why would Goku use Kaioken and then after more fightning say I can't keep up with even tqice the kaioken.


This is saying that Kaioken and Kaioken x2 aren't the same since he stated this.

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uki1234

I know what he pointed out, but its rather useless, since by power levels kaioken and kaioken2x are same thing, and thats only what matters.

My personal opinion is that at the beginning only regular kaioken existed and thats the name of the technique King Kai thought him, which increases his power 2 times. After seeing that regular kaioken is pretty useless, Goku(Akira) realised that he needs increase higher than 2 times(3 times - kaioken 3x), so in lack of better name, the attack was called kaioken 3 times. Thats when Akira decided to along the technique give multiplier number in order for reader to know for how much they got their power increased.

Kaio

No it doesn't.

Evil Vegeta

The text clearly indicates that Goku was "doubling his power" through the Kaioken before he even uses "twice the Kaioken" against Vegeta. So, it does.

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Kaio

"...after doubling his power through the kaio-ken"
This doesn't say that kaio-ken always doubles the user's power. Don't forget what king Kai said about him being able to go further than him with the kaio-ken and the fact that Goku's power level was lower than 90,000 when he was doing the kaio-ken in front of Ginyu when it went up to around 180,000.

Kaboom

This is where these conversations start to fall apart. When you try to pick apart a very clear, concise sentence to suggest that it might not say what it plainly says, then we have problems.

"Through," here, means "using" or "by means of." Nothing deeper, nothing different.

Chibi Mystic Gohan

Huh? He had only used the initial level of Kaiô-Ken at that point, and it's said, quite clearly (even in the Japanese text) that he doubled his power level using Kaiô-Ken. That would mean that the first level doubles your power.

How do you know it was lower? His initial reading is shown to be 90,000. I'd say that's his base level.

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

Kaio

Just because it said that Goku doubled his power through the kaio-ken doesn't mean regular kaio-ken always does this. It could just simply mean he doubled his power using the technique.

And the manga showed Ginyu's scouter beeping before he read off "90,000"; the next scene shows him read off "90,000" in shock, then it just keeps going up.

Why is everyone ignoring my statement on what king Kai said?

Darkprince410

Because Kaiou-sama openly pointed out that he had yet to master the Kaiou-ken, even though it was of his own creation. So simply mastering it (which is what he did) would allow Gokuu to go further than Kaiou-sama did.

The Kaiou-ken in the Saiya-jin Saga was shown to double Gokuu's base battle power, and nothing insinuates that it fluctuates by how much it increases his battle power.

Ginyu was surprised when he read off the 90,000, because Gokuu had just stopped suppressing his battle power at that moment, thus exceeding where Ginyu guessed his battle power would be. It wasn't a result of the Kaiou-ken, but simply going to full power in his base form while powering up with the Kaiou-ken.

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Kaio

When did king Kai say he didn't "master" kaio-ken? I honestly don't remember him saying that. All he said was that Goku has come further than he ever has, which could be interpreted in numerous ways. And how do you know being able to power up to one's maximum through the kaio-ken is possible? Why didn't Goku simply just jump into his supposed, maximum power of 90,000 in an instant, like how he would use his maximum power in instances against the rest of the Ginyu members, instead of powering up to it through kaio-ken? I don't think it makes much sense; there's never been a case like that, so it's just a baseless assumption that he powered up to his maximum that way, in my opinion. For those of you that retaliate with the same notion against my theory:

Why would king Kai say: "Increase it no more higher than twice your normal power...do you understand?" Doesn't that imply that you can use kaio-ken to generate more power at a lower rate than double your base? I suppose one can argue that he meant for Goku not to simply go above double his own power, but I find that doubtful from Akira stating that Goku doubled his power through the kaio-ken, making it a big deal that not even double his base power was enough to defeat Vegeta.

Why would king Kai also say:"...you have come further withe kaio-ken than I even have..."? Doesn't that further imply that kaio-ken doesn't necessarily double the users power, and merely allows them to increase the output than their natural rate? I guess one could argue that his control could've surpassed king Kai's though. . .

How could Goku have the mental capacity to focus his ki output to the point where it's exactly double his original output? Especially at the moment of battle? I would imagine it's merely a guestimated output.

Why would stating a name of a technique really matter? It's like the kamehameha; some of his kamehameha blasts are weaker or incredible strong. Regardless, they're both kamehameha blasts; the only difference was that he focused the output of ki differently. Calling the name of something doesn't affect the output. Also, if you notice, Goku never once declared "kaio-ken".

If regular kaio-ken doubles the user's power level, then kaio-ken x2 would be pointless, and that doesn't make much sense to me.

EDIT: King Kai also said, after saying not to go no higher than twice his original power, "Any more than that, and the toll on your body may prove too great.". To me, he seems to imply that there's more power surges below the rate of doubling your own power. He makes it sound as if "doubling" your power is pushing it.

Devilz

When he's teaching it to Goku.

He doesn't need to, because Kaioken does that for him.

It doesn't, but it tells us what Kaioken he is using, unless you're calling Goku a liar.

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