How can the Kaioken times three exist? - Page 2

SRP76 · 05-11-2008

If Goku's power level is 1, and Goku with Kaioken is 2, then Kaioken is 1.

"Double the Kaioken" is doubling the power of the kaioken, not doubling the multiplier it yields.

"Double the Kaioken" is doubling 1, which would be 2. Goku with a Double Kaioken is then his 1 with the Double Kaioken's 2, which would be 3.

It's not doubling the total of Kaioken with Goku; it's doubling the Kaioken, like Goku says.

Kaboom · 05-11-2008

That just seems like over complicating it, to me. There's confusion because Kaio-Ken and "Kaio-Ken x 2" were named at different points ("KKx2" was actually only said once, I believe), but they're the same thing. Look at how Goku stacked up against Vegeta.

Vegeta was at 18,000. Goku at 8000.

Goku's Kaio-Ken/"Kaio-Ken x 2," putting him at 16,000, made him stronger, but Vegeta is still beating him. It wasn't until using the Kaio-Ken x 3 (putting him at 24,000) that he's actually winning the fight. If KK and KKx2 were separate things, and worked the way most of you are suggesting (with KKx2 being triple his base strength) then KKx2 should have put him above Vegeta's level, and he should have started winning then. It didn't, and he didn't.

KK and KKx2 are the same thing. Toriyama just ended up having two different names for it, either by absent-mindedness or to try to better demonstrate how the technique worked. Try to explain it any other way, and all the later numbers and levels are completely uprooted and make no sense. Seeing it being read into so unnecessarily deeply when it's really so simple is... kinda annoying.

gad_is_here · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madness

I wasn't saying it was a constant value, I was saying that any consequent multipliers are added onto the first Kaioken.

So if Goku's power level is 8,000 and his Kaioken power level is 16,000, then the times two, or times three will be multiplied from the 16,000 rather than Goku's base.

Sounds stupid, but it's how the wording makes it sound.

Don't you think that 16x his power would make it impossible for Goku to survive???

Darkprince410 · 05-11-2008

Fold itself simply denotes multiplication, not a specific number to work with. As such, Kaiou-sama's comment about Gokuu not using beyond the two-fold simply refers to not multiplying his battle power beyond a factor of two. The Kaiou-ken and the Kaiou-ken 2x are alternate names of the same technique, as this fact is confirmed by the Daizenshuu due to the battle powers they list. As such, ignore that they have two separate names, as that's the only thing that distingushes the two.

As srp76 mentioned, the base number used for Kaiou-ken is Gokuu's battle power, so Kaiou-ken/Kaiou-ken 2x simply doubles the base number, and as a result, Kaiou-ken 3x would triple the base number.

gad_is_here · 05-11-2008

Too lazy to read that. But if you're saying that the kaioken value is fixed, then I agree

Madness · 05-11-2008

DP's post makes sense, and so does everyone elses. 'Twas nought but a theory anyway, if not very well explained.

gad_is_here · 05-11-2008

It has it's faults though. That would make Goku Kaiokenx 20 around 524288 times stronger than his base. The battle against Frieza says that this is wrong

Chibi Mystic Gohan · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkprince410

Fold itself simply denotes multiplication, not a specific number to work with. As such, Kaiou-sama's comment about Gokuu not using beyond the two-fold simply refers to not multiplying his battle power beyond a factor of two. The Kaiou-ken and the Kaiou-ken 2x are alternate names of the same technique, as this fact is confirmed by the Daizenshuu due to the battle powers they list. As such, ignore that they have two separate names, as that's the only thing that distingushes the two.

As srp76 mentioned, the base number used for Kaiou-ken is Gokuu's battle power, so Kaiou-ken/Kaiou-ken 2x simply doubles the base number, and as a result, Kaiou-ken 3x would triple the base number.

Not to mention the fact that the translation of "fold" is just what the translator decided to translated "-bai" as (such as "ni-bai Kaiô-Ken", the Kaiô-Ken x2).

Saint Dean · 05-11-2008

Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 are the same -

Goku base = 8,000.
Kaio-ken/Kaio-ken x2 = 16,000
Kaio-ken x3 = 24,000
Kaio-ken x4 would of been = 32,000

Devilz · 05-11-2008

How did KKx3 become 32,000?

Saint Dean · 05-11-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devilz

How did KKx3 become 32,000?

Oo Sorry =)
I have changed it =)
I am rubbish at math

gokussj2 · 05-11-2008

there isn't kaio-ken x1 , it's just regular kaio-ken that increase the person's power but not doubling it , the ???x starts from x2 , therefor x3 x4 x5 x6 x7 x8 x9 x10 and so on

Unruly_Saiyajin · 05-11-2008

So Kaioken x2 Doubles a person's power?

Therefore, Kaioken x3 triple their base power.
Ans so on, and so forth.

Evil Vegeta · 05-11-2008

Goku was stated to have been doubling his power through the basic Kaioken, though.

uki1234 · 05-11-2008

Kaioken alone is same as Kaioken 2x:

05-11-2008	#16 (permalink)
SRP76 (22) Super Saiyan 3 Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,197 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 17	Re: How can the Kaioken times three exist? If Goku's power level is 1, and Goku with Kaioken is 2, then Kaioken is 1. "Double the Kaioken" is doubling the power of the kaioken, not doubling the multiplier it yields. "Double the Kaioken" is doubling 1, which would be 2. Goku with a Double Kaioken is then his 1 with the Double Kaioken's 2, which would be 3. It's not doubling the total of Kaioken with Goku; it's doubling the Kaioken, like Goku says.

05-11-2008	#17 (permalink)
Kaboom (6) Disciple of Kami Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 58 Rep Power: 3	Re: How can the Kaioken times three exist? That just seems like over complicating it, to me. There's confusion because Kaio-Ken and "Kaio-Ken x 2" were named at different points ("KKx2" was actually only said once, I believe), but they're the same thing. Look at how Goku stacked up against Vegeta. Vegeta was at 18,000. Goku at 8000. Goku's Kaio-Ken/"Kaio-Ken x 2," putting him at 16,000, made him stronger, but Vegeta is still beating him. It wasn't until using the Kaio-Ken x 3 (putting him at 24,000) that he's actually winning the fight. If KK and KKx2 were separate things, and worked the way most of you are suggesting (with KKx2 being triple his base strength) then KKx2 should have put him above Vegeta's level, and he should have started winning then. It didn't, and he didn't. KK and KKx2 are the same thing. Toriyama just ended up having two different names for it, either by absent-mindedness or to try to better demonstrate how the technique worked. Try to explain it any other way, and all the later numbers and levels are completely uprooted and make no sense. Seeing it being read into so unnecessarily deeply when it's really so simple is... kinda annoying.

05-11-2008	#19 (permalink)
Darkprince410 (23) Final Warrior Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ohio, United States Posts: 2,569 Rep Power: 20	Re: How can the Kaioken times three exist? Fold itself simply denotes multiplication, not a specific number to work with. As such, Kaiou-sama's comment about Gokuu not using beyond the two-fold simply refers to not multiplying his battle power beyond a factor of two. The Kaiou-ken and the Kaiou-ken 2x are alternate names of the same technique, as this fact is confirmed by the Daizenshuu due to the battle powers they list. As such, ignore that they have two separate names, as that's the only thing that distingushes the two. As srp76 mentioned, the base number used for Kaiou-ken is Gokuu's battle power, so Kaiou-ken/Kaiou-ken 2x simply doubles the base number, and as a result, Kaiou-ken 3x would triple the base number. __________________

05-11-2008	#20 (permalink)
gad_is_here (22) Super Saiyan 3 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: I go with the naked ladies[;)] Posts: 2,087 Blog Entries: 4 Rep Power: 30	Re: How can the Kaioken times three exist? Too lazy to read that. But if you're saying that the kaioken value is fixed, then I agree __________________ Nobody's perfect and since I'm nobody... Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. Avoid fruits and nuts. You are what you eat. Jim Davis All true wisdom is found on T-shirts. Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.

05-11-2008	#21 (permalink)
Madness Commander Madness (29) King of Soul Society Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Seeing how long I can make this entry, simply for lol reasons. Maybe I can make it stretch to the o- Posts: 8,814 Blog Entries: 9 Rep Power: 127	Re: How can the Kaioken times three exist? DP's post makes sense, and so does everyone elses. 'Twas nought but a theory anyway, if not very well explained. __________________

05-11-2008	#22 (permalink)
gad_is_here (22) Super Saiyan 3 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: I go with the naked ladies[;)] Posts: 2,087 Blog Entries: 4 Rep Power: 30	Re: How can the Kaioken times three exist? It has it's faults though. That would make Goku Kaiokenx 20 around 524288 times stronger than his base. The battle against Frieza says that this is wrong __________________ Nobody's perfect and since I'm nobody... Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. Avoid fruits and nuts. You are what you eat. Jim Davis All true wisdom is found on T-shirts. Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.

05-11-2008	#24 (permalink)
Saint Dean (9) Namekian Warrior Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chesterfield, England Posts: 106 Rep Power: 4	Re: How can the Kaioken times three exist? Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 are the same - Goku base = 8,000. Kaio-ken/Kaio-ken x2 = 16,000 Kaio-ken x3 = 24,000 Kaio-ken x4 would of been = 32,000 __________________ Writing my first Fan Fiction

05-11-2008	#27 (permalink)
gokussj2 (13) Great Ape Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 317 Rep Power: 0	Re: How can the Kaioken times three exist? there isn't kaio-ken x1 , it's just regular kaio-ken that increase the person's power but not doubling it , the ???x starts from x2 , therefor x3 x4 x5 x6 x7 x8 x9 x10 and so on

05-11-2008	#28 (permalink)
Unruly_Saiyajin Naruto Ranked (14) ANBU Commander Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: U.S. Posts: 379 Rep Power: 2	Re: How can the Kaioken times three exist? So Kaioken x2 Doubles a person's power? Therefore, Kaioken x3 triple their base power. Ans so on, and so forth. __________________ P.S. Visit this site for all the anime your heart desires : http://www.animecrazy.net/

05-11-2008	#30 (permalink)
uki1234 (20) Super Saiyan 2 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Belgrade, Serbia Posts: 1,205 Rep Power: 11	Re: How can the Kaioken times three exist? Kaioken alone is same as Kaioken 2x: