Madness

But the thing is, that is canonically stated to be possible. Lightspeed isn't.

Oh and, you can see things at lightspeed. Things would just... lag.

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ANB

^Missing the point.

They are ALL scientifically innacurate. Toriyama apparently knew about things like gravity and breathing in space and looked them up (he wouldn't know someone on a heavier planet would weigh less or that you can't breath). There are even more examples than that. Stop saying what is "impossible" when in fact, even outside the manga, Lustoid brilliantly pointed out that there are speeds faster than light.

And your last sentence just helped my case...

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gad_is_here

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Vagrant Lustoid 2

You'd be able to see things, just that you'd see them AFTER you hit them. Lightspeed has never been stated canonically to be possible so there's no reason to assume that it's true. It's never been stated to be canonically possible for a guy to give birth to a baby, but I bet if I said that you'd go "Lol Goku's a man, that's not possible".

Sorata, it doesn't matter if ki surpasses the speed of light, because neural pathways cannot operate beyond lightspeed anyway. The time it takes for a signal to get from a sensory organ (skin, eyes, ears) to the brain and for the brain to process it is going to always be below light speed, so that even when you 'sense' chi, it's going to take longer than lightspeed for you to realise you are sensing chi and what exactly it means.

By the way, maths prove nothing without a theoretical basis. I mean, you could come up with a formula that states any mathematical possibility that would work on paper but cannot work in real life once you account for the physical factors. Also, you've failed to acknowledge that the range is currently between 106 miles in a second and 192,000 miles in a second, which is a massive, massive difference. You've already decided at the very start of the thread that Gotenks was moving at the absolute upper limit and refuse to accept anything that would drop that speed below lightspeed, not due to any scientific, biological or strucurally logically sound reasons, but merely because it would harm your argument.

And finally, when you prove a quote that shows that eyes do not require light despite being light-based sensory organs, then I'll shut up about that. But you can't. And you never proved that the Death beam moves beyond the speed of light, merely that it moves faster than Piccolo and Krillin's action reflex nerve impulses were at the time, and they're far below light speed, so that means bugger all. You could be twice an action reflex impulse in speed and still not be even 1% the speed of light.

You act like a human's eye can see at the threshold of lightspeed, whent his is simply not true. The brain only catalogs less than 24 images from the eye ever second, hence why 24 frame-per-second animations appear to have full movement to us. Cameras can film at far higher rates, into the hundreds of frames per second, but they still cannot see at light speed. If you could, you know what you'd see? You'd see each individual photon of light anyway, and given their mass soaking effects and the fact that we view them in waves, if you could see at lightspeed you still wouldn't see anything but massive clusters of photons.

I've studied psychoneurology, I know how long it takes a signal to get tot he brain and have meaning made of it, and it's far below light speed.

But they've been canonically proven. You have nothing to overwhelmingly support your case.

Also, I did point out that you can achieve speeds faster than light, but only as a state of pure energy, which Gotenks is not. So it didn't help your argument, but only crippled it.

Madness

I didn't miss the point, you did. They're stated to be possible, so they are. Lightspeed isn't stated to be possible, so it's debatable whether they broke it or not.

And there are speeds faster than light... by about a fraction. And it's only done by radiation particles, which are basically light anyway. So the only thing faster than light is... light.

Anyway, I don't see how the lag would help your case. People would seem to be there whilst not being there. In order to hit someone going at the speed of light you'd have to punch ahead of where you saw them. And seeing as they're going at the speed of light, it's gonna be a fair amount in front of them. And seeing as light can circle the globe 8 times in a second... that's one hell of a lead, especially if they're going several times faster than light.

I'm not going to get into the details about the nuclear explosions going faster than light would cause either. Simply moving the atoms out of the way that fast would trigger huge amounts of nuclear reactions, even in space.

Credit for the info from my friend btw

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ANB

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

And I'm willing to accept other ranges of speed. YOUR the ones who absolutely refuse to accept mathematically proven calculations. Your the ones who act like every single aspect of physics can be implemented into Dragonball. You're the bigots. It IS possible that he travelled at speeds faster than light and nothing you say can change that.

Regarding the death beam, you once again are ignoreing the fact their perception depends ENTIRELY on their strength. Entirely. And they already could not be tracked with human eyes when their power-levels were in the hundreds. They were absolute blurs to ordinary people and all they heard was a "crack".

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Sorata

Chi is faster than lightspeed yet somehow they sense it instantly. Doesn't that assume that their awakened Ki sensing can operate in higher speeds? Maybe the Ki reacts somehow itself on the Ki signal accelerating the neural pathways?

If youre talking about neural reactions it would be impossible for them to even achieve early millions cause their brains couldn't react with the speed needed to punch or avoid. It would mean that their top speed is the speed of the electricity in neural system and when they reach it they just can't be faster. Yet their reaction speed depends only from the amount of their power. DBZ characters brains are proven to react and process information hundreds times faster than any normal human brain.

To make things clear - I think they couldn't achieve lightspeed but not because of their senses.

Chibi Mystic Gohan

Seeing and hearing are two totally different things. That's some very faulty logic right there.

Why are you assuming that something has to travel the speed of light to be invisible to the human eye? I don't know that that is true. Can you back that up?

And what about the Death Beam?

I will admit that some of those things would be impossible in our world, due to the fantasy element, but those are a part of the series. No one in the series said outright that a character would travel at the speed of light. And for the record:

Capsule technology could be very possible in the future.
Only alien characters regenerate, such as Piccolo. And his species is supposed to be based on lizards and whatnot. They can regenerate lost limbs.
Breathing in space (it's not actually breathing, I think, more that Freeza doesn't need to breathe, or that he can hold his breath. It's not explained) is done by an alien character, and surviving in higher gravity is also done by aliens.
Teleporting and wish granting are both fantasy elements that work within the Dragon Ball universe.

Once again, there are unknown factors that make your theory unverifiable. The amount of time he was flying in that panel is unknown, the amount of time he flew total is unknown, the amount of times he circled the Earth is unknown. (No, the VIZ translation cannot be used to enhance your argument when it contradicts Toriyama's original line. And there is no Japanese equivalent of the word "dozen." That's the adapted line. Address this point, stop ignoring it.)

You have a theory, not a fact. That's all.

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

Madness

You stole that from me

And I've since found out I was wrong. In a fictional universe what we don't see is a debatable truth. And we take it as our own universe anything that isn't stated otherwise. Lightspeed is one of these. Noone could breach it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANB And I'm willing to accept other ranges of speed. YOUR the ones who absolutely refuse to accept mathematically proven calculations. Your the ones who act like every single aspect of physics can be implemented into Dragonball. You're the bigots. It IS possible that he travelled at speeds faster than light and nothing you say can change that.

"You're".

I like the "I have green goblins lived up my chimney and you can't prove me wrong!" method of debating. It's right up there with covering your ears and saying "Lalalalalalalala!" in the childishness stakes. Well done ANB. I thought you were better than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANB Regarding the death beam, you once again are ignoreing the fact their perception depends ENTIRELY on their strength. Entirely. And they already could not be tracked with human eyes when their power-levels were in the hundreds. They were absolute blurs to ordinary people and all they heard was a "crack".

No, it doesn't depend entirely on their strength. It helps to a point, and with training can increase, but not at lightspeed. There's nothing to see. Their eyes still depend on light, and the light in this case would be standing there looking stupid 'cos it can't catch the object they're trying to see.

Well it would catch them, but they won't be there.

Think of it as having a bad ping in real life.

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Vagrant Lustoid 2

Sorry ANB, but the topic title already counters your point just then. You'd already decided, through no actual scientific method and evidence, and won't accept speeds below lightspeed. This is different to us not accepting beyond lightspeed, because below lightspeed is already proven to be possible and beyond lightspeed is not. So as such, by not accepting something that is already proven as possible, you become the bigot.

I think that through senses they could theoretically push to the very limit of lightspeed, like 99.9999999% the speed of light, but since scientific evidence so far indicates nothing about matter being able to move beyond lightspeed, I can't accept that the neural pathways can do so. So what does this mean for the death beam? Yeah, they'd see it, as long as it goes even a fraction below light speed, but beyond that no. And if they could see beyond light speed, they'd see all the individual photons either frozen or moving so slowly that it'd be like being in a blizzard, which would render you blind anyway. So they still wouldn't see the death beam, cause the light still has to reach them to be able to be seen.

As for ANB, when absence of evidence is all you have, that's all you can rely on. Why is this fact so hard to grasp? You wouldn't accept that I have an intangible invisible immesurable pink dragon in my garage, despite the fact that apparently "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence". So I see no reason I should believe you. Your theory lacks falsifiability, and as such isn't a sound theory, since it can never be proven wrong absolutely, cause you can always just say "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence". Which goes against scientific methodology and debatable logic, meaning it's pointless to argue the topic with you when you'll just weasel your way out with that statement, every time.

And as for the death beam, I'm not ignoring that perception depends on strength. I fully believe the reflexes and perspective speed increases as you grow stronger. But I don't think that there's physically no limit to this capacity, and if there's a physical biological limit of any form, it's going to be the speed of light, because matter and information cannot surpass that speed, as scientifically proven.

Look, when scientific evidence emerges that matter can surpass the speed of light, then I'll accept that the theory has some merit. I still won't say it confirms it, since I've already proven he could be going as slow as 106 miles per second, but I'll accept that it becomes plausible once you have actual evidence of some form to back you up. In a debate you can only ever debate with what is known, never what is unknown.

ANB

1-I made the comparison between the light barrier and the sound barrier for an obvious reason: You were ASSUMING that once you are beyond the speed of light you cannot see. This doesn't make sense because when you break the sound barrier you can still hear.

2-Okay then, stfu about what is "impossible". Toriyama never denies that they go past light speed; therefore you cannot argue it impossible. It's a mathematical possibility.

3-I KNOW THAT THERE ARE "UNCERTAINTIES".

There are known knowns and known unkowns. Then there are unkown knowns and unkown unkowns, things you don't know that you don't know!

-How long he flew
-How long was the nap

Are known unkowns.

-That he circles it at least 24 times
-That it was within the period of 28 minutes

Are "knowns".

Viz is the official translation company for Dragonball. To bring anything into the debate stemming from a deffering translation is both illegal and unacceptable to the rules on the forums.

I am NOT denying that you know Japanese or that they have the word "dozen". So...for the sake of arguement, let's say we DON'T know how many times he flew:

-That would mean he flew so fast and so many times he couldn't keep track.
-That would mean he flew an unkown number of times
-That would mean his speed is considerable

We hear Piccolo mention that they only have two minutes before the fusion cancels. Consider this: Gotenks had not been keeping track of the time and forgot that he only had thirty minutes. In fact, he once again negelcts to keep track of time during his rematch with Boo. In his perspective, a thirty minute nap would not have been fatal.

And even thinking outside the box: IF Gotenks really flew around so many times he lost count, that could imply as you famously tout that he was flying the entire time and took a one minute nap. Which strongly supports the notion he was at light-speed even more than the viz translation.

But I digress. No other translation can be used.

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Madness

Me and Lustoid were ignored!

At least ANB's stopped covering his ears anyway.

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ANB

I can't fight all of you at the same time--that would require using my full-power which would obliterate MFG.

Anyway, you guys cannot deny the possibility simply because it's "impossible". Do you know what "possibility" means...? There are many things impossible in DBZ. To refute a theory based only on this is flawed logic as it relies on a mind-set which goes against well-established facts in the manga.

IN OTHER WORDS: You can't deny the possibility (Which IS there wether you like it or not) simply because it is "scien