Chibi Mystic Gohan

I was never trolling...

That just shows your ignorance. More importantly, do you have any evidence to back up such an outlandish theory? That simply isn't how eyes work. Hell, here's the very first sentence in the Wikipedia article on eyes: "Eyes are organs that detect light." It's as simple as that. If you're faster than light you can't detect light.

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

Sorata

I think I could hear a counterargument at this point.

Chibi Mystic Gohan

It's already been explained numerous times why it would be impossible.

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

Sorata

I meant that.

Vagrant Lustoid 2

Already been over this... those examples are explicit and stated canon facts. So regardless of the facts of biology, in their world it is clearly possible.

Dragonball Z has not provided this avenue of clear and explicit statement. Nor has it ever mentioned that the eye, a light-based sensory organ, doesn't need light to operate, which would mean that the development of eyes would be paradoxical and against evolution, being pointless mutations, and never would have happened.

The fact that they have eyes means that without an explicit and clear example and statement that they can proceed beyond the speed of light, that they cannot.

I mean, if you're going to argue that because it's fiction they can, then I can just as logically argue that Raditz moved faster than the speed of light, because apparently you can make up any statement and not have to back it up if the example is fiction. At least he has a line, dub or not, to support it. You made the positive statement, you're the one who has to back it up with clear proof. We merely have to fall back on logic and previous examples.

I mean, if I said I had an invisible pink intangible unmeasurable dragon in my garage and that you had to prove that I do not, despite all previous evidence leading to suggest that that's not true, then would you accept that? No. And that's what you're doing here. I don't accept your invisible pink dragon of >c.

Anyway, stating that it's fiction doesn't win the argument. We're well aware that it's not real, but when you're faced with the unknown, all you can ever do is apply the known until evidence appears to allow you to adjust your theory. If you want to subscribe to the concept of "fiction, not real" then feel free to, but don't even bother participating in debates if you're going to follow that train of thought, cause it's not helpful in the slightest.

That's certainly a theory that I wouldn't totally shoot down, and is a heck of a lot more reasonable than Gotenks being able to fly and control his movement at beyond lightspeed. However, given that all current evidence states that matter and information cannot move beyond c, I'd still have to dismiss it as untrue. However, definitely a lot more feasible than the main argument, and I actually really like your idea for why the fight went like it did. Congratulations.

Chibi Mystic Gohan

Er, Final Fantasy VII characters can go light speed now? This is news to me.

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

Sorata

Real worlds evidence - yes. But DB manga states that Ki is in a different league (few different leagues) of fast than the light speed. And this sole fact is undeniable.

Chibi Mystic Gohan

I don't think the term "light speed" even appeared once in the Dragon Ball manga, so what are you talking about?

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

Sorata

The appearance of this term has nothing to do as long as we implement our physics into fictional world only for discussion purposes. So i'm assuming that if we talk about speed of light in DB this speed theoretically exists there. Am I right?

ANB

It's as simple as that...?

So according to you guys, you should theoretically be deaf once you break the sound barrier. That is obviously not true. Astronaughts have gone THIRTY TIMES the speed of sound and can still hear the rattling of the ship. This isn't science you're using as a counter-arguement, it's pure theory and speculation and doesn't make sense. And in your narrow-mindedness you fail to remember that this is a kung-fu gag manga for teenagers and we've already seen talking animals, 5-year-olds beating up armies, technology that allows for houses to pop-up out of nowhere, and a dragon that literally grants three wishes.

Anyway, you cannot deny that Gotenks theoretically went beyond the speed of light. It IS possible that he encircled the Earth 24 times in a single second; as that is within the range of time expressed in the manga. Regarding the "nap": You have to remember Gotenks entirely forgot about his time-limit and was not thinking in the perspective of "I'll take a 1 minute nap so I don't run out of time," because, once again, he forgot.

In his perspective he was just like any other person and a half-hour nap would have been normal to him. That's why Piccolo warned him and he took off confident in his power. But I digress: You cannot deny the possibility of him being faster than light since it's possibility is there. It'd be different if I merely speculated on the issue, but the math speaks for itself. The FACT he could have been >light speed makes a bit of difference guys~!

^In case you didn't notice, the last sentence is one I will use to continually rebuke any claims you make. It's you're blood-pressure ;D

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gad_is_here

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Chibi Mystic Gohan

I don't understand where we implied that. Care to elaborate?


Are you seriously pulling that card? The only reason we've been treating the debate seriously is because your opening post was filled with calculations and whatnot. You brought the laws of our universe into the debate, not us.

And going by that reasoning, since it's just a light hearted "kung-fu gag manga," Toriyama wasn't thinking when he drew Gotenks flying around the Earth, right?! He just wanted to show that he was GOING FAST AND CIRCLING THE PLANET in a single, concise panel.

Ah, the classic "so-and-so could have done this, so that somehow makes me right!" cop-out. Great, Goku could have a vagina. But is there any proof of that? No, it's just a stupid theory. Stop being stubborn and come back with some facts instead of inaccurate calculations and speculation. Seriously, we don't know HOW LONG HIS NAP WAS, HOW LONG HE FLEW, HOW MANY TIMES HE FLEW (I'm ignoring your VIZ line of "a couple dozen" in favor of the actual line, so get used to it), etc.

With that many unknown elements, we simply have no idea whether he could fly at the speed of light or not. Your theory is all based on what-ifs. This is how you pull fact from the manga:

Goku was afraid to fight Super Boo, even with Vegeta's help
Goku was not afraid to fight Kid Boo by himself, and fought rather evenly with him
We can conclude that Super Boo is stronger than Kid Boo

This is how you make assumptions:

Gotenks may have circled the planet eight times in a second
Gotenks may have napped for 29 minutes (he also may have napped for a minute and flew for 28, right?)
Therefore, he can go faster than the speed of light.

Remember, your topic presented this statement rather affirmatively. There was none of this "HE COULD HAVE THEORETICALLY DONE IT!" Goku could theoretically wear pink underwear.

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

Vagrant Lustoid 2

I could theoretically have an intangible, invisible, immesurable pink dragon in my garage. So what's your point? I'll keep coming back to this, because it's exactly what you're doing.

When you argue in a debate, you can only ever argue with what's currently known, or esle there's no point. And since it's currently known that matter and information cannot surpass c, and the manga provides not one piece of solid evidence to counter that idea, then that's what the debate has to argue based on, which means he cannot have surpassed light speed.

ANB

Lustoid is the one who said that once you are beyond the speed of light you "cannot see" since there is not light to relfect on your eyes. Just look back a page. His assumptions don't work because it's just like saying nothing can be heard after breaking the sound barrier when that isn't true. Besides, I've mentioned several times now that they already could not be tracked by ordinary human eyes and that at some point, they [characters] no longer depend entirely on light to see [as evidenced by the death beam].

I'm pulling that card because we are arguing the freaking logistics of DBZ and you want to talk about how "unscientific" and "impossible" light-speed travel is. Yes, I brought it up but your arguements have no grounds. To deny they travelled faster than light simply "because" it is theoretically impossible is fool-hardy.

It is scientifically "impossible":

-To stuff a house in a 1 inch capsule
-To regenerate lost limbs on the spot
-To breath in space
-To survive the crushing weight of 100g's
-To teleport from point A to point C without passing through point B
-To come back to life

^All the above examples go to show claiming my theory doesn't work because it is "scientifically impossible" is non sequitur (It doesn't work; inert if you will).

But it's still a theoretical possibility my friend. And it's based on facts. The math show that it is possible; regardless of the "scientific contradictions".

Your even denying that it's "possible".


We DO have facts to go by. The Earth is 8,000 miles wide. The speed of light is 186,000 miles per second. Gotenks travelled the Earth at least 24 times. It IS possible and there are plenty of facts indicating such.

Sorata

Actually like I wrote earlier Ki surpasses the speed of light by a freakin HUGE margin (as shown in the manga). So your evidence are against the manga.