Vagrant Lustoid 2

That's officially a quote of desperation. If he can't see, he'd crash into everything because he'd hit it before he could see it, logically. Gotenks isn't shown crashing through stuff, rather he goes around it, so we can easily conclude he isn't moving faster than light from that simple fact.

It's not even about fighting. It's about simple biological limitations that absolutely cannot be surpassed due to the very nature of the organs that have developed for such purposes.

Madness

But is Ki faster than light? I doubt it.

Just been speaking with a friend on this matter, and I think we should take this out of the context of physics.

Hell, never mind the eyes, the simple force of the speed on the atoms would cause several nuclear explosions.

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ANB

Does anyone remember...



...The fact he was outside the Earth...?

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Chibi Mystic Gohan

I'm a troll? Because I'm pointing out the truth? You are grasping at straws; you're "on the spot and you're looking to say some concrete shit but you have nothing to say." (Urban Dictionary). You're pulling shit out of your ass.

At least in your first post, you actually tried to take what you believed to be the facts and form a concrete argument (even though I quickly shot them down with the actual facts, to which you tried to say that the VIZ translated manga somehow holds more authority than Akira Toriyama's own written words), but then you got desperate and tried twisting things in your favor.

Go back to Debating 101.

And?

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

Vagrant Lustoid 2

And that proves... what exactly, ANB?

If anything, the fact that he can see how far he is from the Earth and maintain fairly uniform rings indicates that he can see, and as such is not moving beyond the speed of light.

Being in space has nothing to do with moving at the speed of light. Stop throwing out things that have absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand.

ANB

He wasn't crashing into things, Captain Obvious.

And if he did, it wouldn't hurt. They crash through mountains unscathed.

Besides, we see Superman and the Flash run faster than light and even Sonic the Hedgehog. How hard could it be to apply that to DBZ of all things...? YOU ae the cop-outs by saying "It's simply not biologically possible".

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Vagrant Lustoid 2

Captain Obvious? How's this for obvious? He wasn't crashing into things because he could see them and avoid them. And by things I mean the Earth.

Look at the steepness of the turns. At the speeds he'd be moving at beyond light speed, a single simple and minor alteration would throw off the uniformity of his turns and send him either far, far away from Earth or plowing right through it. Since he does neither, he's clearly maintaining some sort of controlled reference point, and sight is the only thing that could be doing that, I imagine.

Besides, I was referring to the images just before that bit where we see him flying along through valleys and along the water and the like without hitting anything.

As for your last claim, they are entirely different. Know why? Because it is explicitly stated that they are moving beyond the speed of light. That is unarguable canon. This is entirely arguable canon, and as we've already shown, by all logical reasoning (which is all you can apply in a debate of this nature) he cannot be moving beyond light speed. You're strawmanning our arguments again. You're truly on the edges of desperation here.

I notice you can't rebut against the fact that the eye requires light to function, and as such moving beyond the speed of light and passing it means that they eyes actually cannot work and thusly you cannot see. I also noticed you avoided commenting on the fact that despite speeds above c are possible, they've never been shown to be true for information or matter, in fact the opposite, both of which render Gotenks unable to travel at the speed of light.

ANB

1-Yes, he'd have to use his eyes to know when to turn.

2-This proves...what...?

3-Okay, what you don't get is that their eyes would adjust to it. I already explained why their eyes DON'T FOLLOW NORMAL PHYSICS and would adjust with the death beam example. Apparently, they no longer need to rely on light for sight. Not only that, but you're forgetting that they rarely use eye-sight to begin with and "feel" with their chi.

4-Lastly, you have yet to refute my calculations; which show that he was going 192,000 miles in less than half an hour. That much is undeniable since we know how large the Earth is and we know the fusion only lasts 30 minutes. It's entirely possible he covers that distance in only a minute and took a 20 minute nap. It's also possible that he took one second per revolution around the Earth but with that I again bring up the fact it was within a single panel (Just like when they punch numerous times and it creates the illusion they have several arms).

5-You can't say they are "unable" since numerous characters from other universes have done such a feat. The human body is "unable" to handle gravity larger than what we are used to and they not only can handle 100x, but 300x.

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Chibi Mystic Gohan

Wow, ignoring my post? I'd neg rep you if I could.


And this somehow changes the fact that you haven't refuted his claim? You keep dodging the important stuff.

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

ANB

Likewise ; )

You're not worth my time if you're going to be disrespectfull. You're power doesn't interest me anymore.

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Chibi Mystic Gohan

"GTFO troll."

That's not disrespectful? I was only pointing out the fact that you make up wild theories to suit your argument.

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

ANB

Everything I've said is based on facts. Even you, in an attempt to discredit me, found a website that agreed with my statements about how fast light can travel.

And you were trolling.

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Vagrant Lustoid 2

Indicating that he can see. And thus is below the speed of light.

2-This proves...what...?

But what you fail to understand is that the Death beam and all other examples DO FOLLOW NORMAL PHYSICS. I just explained it. If you can speed up the connections and neural pathways, you can allow your mind to perceive things faster. However, it is impossible to perceive something before it reaches you. It is simply and utterly impossible.

Apparently, they no longer need to rely on light for sight.

Bullshit, provide a stated example where they say they don't need light any more to see? You're ignoring the fact that eye is a light-based sensory organ. There is absolutely no explanation for them being able to transcend the speed of light and remain able to see the physical world with their eyes, given that an eye is a light-based sensory organ.

And yeah, they 'feel' with their chi. But what do they feel? The only times we get shown this is when two people who are displaying chi fight. Are you saying rocks have chi? That inanimate material has chi? This is totally and unambiguously wrong. Chi sensing is also still subject to the neural pathways within the mind for perception, and since neural pathways use matter to transfer information, and I showed you that all the methods of surpassing C do not work with matter or information, your argument falls apart right there.

You know what? At its lower limit the numbers you've provided mean that Gotenks was moving at 106 miles a second. Hellishly fast, sure. But nowhere even within a fraction the speed of light. With such a huge range, I find it totally ridiculous that you've decided that only the absolute upper limit can be the true one, and discard everything else below it.

Also, tell me something. If you were doing a manga and wanted to show that a guy flew around the world 8 times, would you show each time in an individual panel, with a clear demarcator to show how much time has passed, or would you bring it all down into a single panel, which is far easier to draw, far more aesthetically pleasing and actually manages to convey a sense of time?

For all you know, that picture could be like one of those time-release pictures that astronomers use to map the path of stars in the sky. The ones that turn the stars into streaks because they capture them at each moment of their movement over minutes or hours and place it into one photo. So instead of this one panel proving it must be within a second, I can use the equally likely time-delay image concept to say that that's over the period of a full 29 minutes.

I never said that they can't handle 300x. Because it's canonically proven that they can. The same goes for other universes. If a person is stated to be able to move beyond the speed of light in another universe from a reliable source, of course I'll accept that, as it's been explicitly and canonically stated. This has not. What you are doing is throing in even more fogging issues. Superman and the Flash have absolutely sweet FA to do with this argument.

Chibi Mystic Gohan

No, you claimed that the website agreed with your calculations (which aren't correct). The same website (and another, and THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE) all say that light is fast enough to circle the planet eight times in a second. You "calculations" claim it does it 23 times in 23 seconds (why not simplify?), or once in one second. That makes light seem eight times slower than it really is, which people could see as you trying to make Gotenks seem faster than he really is.

Also, "based on facts"? You implying things such as Gotenks being able to see while going light speed because of his Super Saiyan is ludicrous, and is an example of you grasping at straws. Saying that you're grasping at straws is not trolling, I was saying, in a polite manner, that you're "pulling shit out of your ass." Trolling is when you try to intentionally anger someone online.

And I still haven't seen you explain how VIZ's translation takes precedence over the original manga.

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02