ANB

So you think they'd essentially be in darkness...?

The SSJ aura follow them around. It has it's own light as demonstrated by Goku to Yakon.

Also, human eyes ALREADY couldn't track them when they moved quickly during the FIRST Budokai (See Kuririn v. Muten Roshi). We are reminded of this when Cell fought Goku and the camera saw nothing but blurs. Once again: Their eyes adjust to it.

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Were they created by nothing? Or were they them­selves the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create heaven and earth? Nay, but they are not sure.

(52:35-36)

Madness

Yes they would. And the SSJ aura would be no help because they'd be going faster than the light that it creates.

That's not the speed of light, that's the speed of perception. Faster than the human eye does not mean faster than light. The fact that they could eventually see them proves they are not exceeding the speed of light.

How can your eye adjust when there's nothing to adjust to? There would be no light. There would be nothing to see. It'd be like they were blind. They would hear nothing. See nothing. It would be stupid to try and fight like that.

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Chibi Mystic Gohan

You're reeeeeeeeally grasping at straws here.

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

Vagrant Lustoid 2

It is a simple matter of physics. And since we've not seen light follow different laws of physics in the show, then in an argument dealing with light we can only rely on what we know to be true here and apply it to DBZ, otherwise the whole argument is pointless. So don't say 'lolDBZphysicsnotrealphysics'.

Vegeta can track a Death beam because his mental and nervous capacities have sped up. This means that the electrochemical signals sent from his retina to his brain, and the subsequent processing and attaching of meaning to those signals, happens much faster than a regular human. However, his eyes still rely on the light hitting them to form the pattern on his retina so his mind can perceive it.

If he's passing things before the light from them hits his retinas, he cannot perceive them, no matter how fast his reflexes are, because he is physically not getting any signal. Think of it like an antenna system or something. Most people might have a CB radio, good for a few kilometers, but Vegeta might have a satellite boosted system that can get signals from halfway across the globe (likened to increased reflexive speed). However, if the signals are being prevented from hitting his antenna for whatever reason (a mountain, being in a lead-lined room, doesn't really matter), then it doesn't matter at all how good his antenna is, because he's not getting the signal. This is what happens when you surpass the speed of light. Your retinas aren't getting the signals required to perceive what's going on. The same applies to Gotenks.

And since this would be an impossible and foolhardy way to fight or even travel, clearly he doesn't move faster than the speed of light.

Deep thought

You all do realize that in space, you cannot move at all, and, after a few seconds, you suffocate and die. You also might freeze to death instantly. I'm sure that even Akira Toriyama knows that, due to the whole "Freeza can survive in the vacuum of space, while Goku cannot" thing.

This all can be avoided if you go at a certain speed, of course.

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Vagrant Lustoid 2

Of course you can move in space, as long as you have an equal and opposite reaction. If flaring your ki out behind you creates a physical force (and we know that flaring ki does create a physical force) then you'd keep moving through space forever until you applied some brakes.

ANB

GTFO troll. I only brought it up because he mentioned the light thing. I've got lots of reasons for my arguements.


Nice vocabulary. I don't know what you're trying to prove because I've already explained that their bodies adjust to it.

The escape velocity of a black-hole is beyond the speed of light. It is therefore possible to travel at speed greater than it.


They'd have to go 21,000 mph just to escape Earth's gravity and Goku was approaching these speeds in Draonball when he leaped thousands of feet into the air, saw clouds, and then slowly fell back down.

Quick question: Does anyone think it's impossible for them to travel AT the speed of light...?

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Were they created by nothing? Or were they them­selves the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create heaven and earth? Nay, but they are not sure.

(52:35-36)

Madness

Yes, I do.

The black hole doesn't move faster, it's gravitational pull is simply so vast that not even light can escape. It cannot get out, not that it's pulled in. Light goes everywhere, and when it goes into a black hole, it cannt get out.

The space thing is a moot point. Toriyama states Freeza is able to survive a vacuum. He doesn't state ever that any character can exceed the speed of sound.

Lets have no more of this perception thing. Nothing moving at the speed of light is able to be seen. We don't even see light; we see the effects of it. If someone was moving faster than the speed of light, you'd never see them. Ever.

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ANB

Yeah, no one sees them when they move quickly!

And black-holes DO pulle you in. Ever heard of the event horizon...? Once you cross it, the gravity begins pulling you. And the escape velocity=>Speed of light.

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Were they created by nothing? Or were they them­selves the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create heaven and earth? Nay, but they are not sure.

(52:35-36)

Madness

Yes it does, but light goes willingly into it. It simply cannot escape. The pull is greater than light's push.

It's seen several times throughout DB/Z that people move faster than other people's perceptions. However, when they grow stronger they are able to see them. If they were going faster than light no amount of strength would let you see them. There would be nothing to see.

We see things by light reflecting off of them. If you're moving faster than the light than the light cannot reflect and so you cannot see them.

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ANB

What are you talking about...? Roshi broke the sound barrier by catching bullets! Of course getting stronger will let them see At/beyond it and I've already pointed out that even science agrees there are speeds beyond light. Do you want me to whip out my Astronomy 101 book...?

They. Would. see. You cannot say it's impossible because ordinary human eyes can only see as far as light relfects. In fact, I might argue that the Death Beam is faster than light simply because speed and power correlate and yet Piccolo was baffled while Vegeta could trace it.

According to your logic, we cannot hear things once we break the sound barrier (700mph) and that's obviously not true!!!

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Were they created by nothing? Or were they them­selves the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create heaven and earth? Nay, but they are not sure.

(52:35-36)

Madness

Let me say this again:

No amount of training, or any eyes can ever see anything that exceeds the speed of light. You absolutely cannot. How much d'you know about physics? Have a look and see how we see things.

If light cannot reflect off something then we cannot see it. Light reflected off of objects is the sole reason that we see anything anyway. If light does not reflect off an object, we cannot see it. No amount of training will change that.

No object can exceed the speed of light. Gravity isn't an object. Gravity is in a class of it's own. It's just a... pull. It doesn't move. Whe light reaches the event horizon, it simply is pulled in. It turns and it goes in. Once it's in, it cannot get out. It's like chaining a car to a rock; no matter how hard you strain the engine, you ain't gonna move.

Gravity doesn't reach out and pull light in. It beckons it in. Light goes in of it's own accord.

Nothing can exceed the speed of light, and if it can, we can't see it anyway.

Anything that can be seen, at any point ever is not exceeding the speed of light.

That is the bottom line ANB.

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Shaka of virgo

Superman and flash can :P

Cell move as close to isntant transmision when kicking Goku butt, but i know, there is just not clue what speed DB has, only that they go stronger/faster in each saga. and only that "interview" with Toriyama is the only proof, and is not a solid one.

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Train hard and enjoy life, that is the Muten Roshi way.

Vagrant Lustoid 2

Your body can adjust to higher "frame rates" sure. But it is impossible for an eye to adjust to see when there is absolutely no light. The entire point of the organ that is the eye is to absorb light, codify it into chemical signals and transmit it to the brain. Bodies can adjust to increase chemical impusles to the brain, resulting in being able to see things moving faster, but no matter how fast a chemical impusle is moving, if there's no signal to go with the impulse, the brain gets nothing.

This isn't about nothing, it's physically impossible to see if you're going beyond the speed of light. You cannot ignore that.

Er, no... The escape velocity is theoretically beyond the speed of light, yeah, but it's never been proven that such a speed is physically possible, especially for matter. The escape velocity of a black hole means bugger all in such an argument as this.

Now, if we'd seen Gotenks escaping from the event horizon of a black hole, then I'd be forced to agree with you. But what you just stated is a fogger, a statement that bares no actual relation or value to the debate.

Yes, there are speeds beyond light. I've studied them briefly, and Wiki quickly sums them up for the purpose of the argument:

Wave velocities and synchronized events

It has long been known theoretically that it is possible for the "group velocity" of light to exceed c. However, it is not possible to use this technique to transfer information faster than c: the velocity of information transfer depends on the front velocity (the speed at which the first rise of a pulse above zero moves forward) and the product of the group velocity and the front velocity is equal to the square of the normal speed of light in the material.

Light spots and shadows

If a laser is swept across a distant object, the spot of light can easily be made to move at greater than c.[13] Similarly, a shadow projected onto a distant object can be made to move faster than c. In neither case does any matter or information travel faster than light.

Quantum mechanics

The speed of light may also appear to be exceeded in some phenomena involving evanescent waves, such as tunnelling. Experiments indicate that the phase velocity and the group velocity of evanescent waves may exceed c; however, it would appear that the front velocity does not exceed c, so, again, it is not possible for information to be transmitted faster than c.

What do each of those examples I just posted indicate? While energy forms can move faster than light, in most cases this energy is light itself, and in no cases has it been information or matter. And guess what? The signals to your brain from your eyes are information. Since information cannot exceed the speed of light, then even ignoring the fact that it's stated that matter cannot exceed the speed of light, it's just proven my point, that your eyes cannot adapt to seeing at speeds faster than light. It's a basic biological fact. Since the eyes rely on light to see, then going faster than light and thusly not absorbing the light your eyes rely on logically results in total and unavoidable blindness.