Chibi Mystic Gohan

Why the hostility?

The Kaiôshin literally says that he can bring a person "beyond their limit." That means Gohan had a limit, and the Kaiôshin brought him past it with his magic.

And I'd still like to know when in the series that Freeza or Vegeta say that Saiyans have unlimited potential.

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

Final Ultima

Kaioshin brings out the dormant power of Gohan, Yeah the fact that his limit was PASSED (again) proves my freakin point.

Vegeta vs Dodaria check it.....

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Evil Vegeta

Freeza said it to Zarbon inside the ship.

Gohan is far beyond his limits, Ultima. His power is stated to not even increase by Buu when's he's healed.

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Chibi Mystic Gohan

Kaiôshin doesn't *say* dormant power. He says "beyond your limits." If you understand Japanese, the word used is 限界 (genkai). This means Gohan had to have a limit, or his power up would never have ended.

Yeah, you're right about the Dodoria fight. He literally says "Freeza is afraid of the Saiyans' bottomless potential...!"

True. He says that his power had only returned to normal after being healed by Dende.



"I-impossible...! His power's been restored to the same as before...!! Who is that strange little brat...?
...But he's only went back to the same as before... He hasn't powered up at all..."

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

USSJed

Why does Elder Kai saying he has taken Gohan past his limit prove that Gohan has no limits?

Madness

Wrong.

Goku didn't "break the escape velocity". He jumped out of the planet.

I can jump; am I breaking the escape velocity of the planet? No, I'm simply using my muscles to propel myself upwards. If my muscles were strong enough, like for example Goku's, then jumping high enough would mean I could jump clear of the gravitational well.

Goku simply jumped out of the reach of the small gravity on King Kai's place. It might be stronger, but the reach of the gravity would be much less.

Now, there's nothing to say that the correlation of speed and power is linear. But that's not my gripe here.

Since when has mathematics been accepted canon?

First off, any theory such as the one ANB has created needs several examples, not just one. Otherwise, it's simply a fact that Roshi did that run that time. If you're going to prove that they are linear ANB, give me another example where someone with a higher power level does exactly what you'd predicted they would. Otherwise, it's a theory with no way of proving itself.

The math proves nothing, unless the math can prove itself.

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gad_is_here

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Final Ultima

And? What's this got to do with the Saiyans? Gohan usually surpasses his limits through anger! The Saiyans have infinite power and that is shown and stated throughout the entire freakin series. The Dragonball Daizenshuu 2 tells you this as well.

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Evil Vegeta

Well, since Gohan is a hybrid, he could possibly be at his limit. I'm not sayin he could never gain more power, just that it won't be anywhere near significant like his previous increases.

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ANB

No, according to this logic they eventually never get faster while we see Vegeta, at 24,000, lucidly superior in speed to Kiwi. And there are several exmaples even if the Boo saga where they get faster simply for having a higher power-level.

Yes, people forget Gohan is a hybrid. Toriyama stated in a box during Goku's 100xEarth training that he ALREADY far surpassed his natural limit! Hybrids grow more quickly but have a limit.

You think Kaio told him "try to jump" for no reason? Goku could leap hundreds of feet into the air as a child but was still pulled back to Earth after reaching a limit.

This is an uneducated assumption. I've seen guys that lift weights 6 hours a day and they can manage to squate a thousand lbs. Hmm, I wonder why they can't jump like Lebron...or even me...


Why? Because of the radius...? That's wrong because Kaio commented that he could already jump pretty high. It [The gravitational attraction] doesn't go out nearly as much as Earth's but it's still 10x stronger. That's why a ship would need to be even faster.

I'd rip you a new one if this was your main point.

Since Toriyama decided to frequently use math in his story...? He even hints at differences through the characters reactions.

...?

I haven't given many examples??? Look back a few pages, I've listed at least 6 (including from the Boo saga).

Hmm, no matter:


That was a paragraph out of only one example. Show me why speed wouldn't immediately go with power.

I see you have you to find a flaw in my math.

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And you're evidence is...? Just saying "they look twice as fast to me" doesn't really prove anything.

Probably the entire forum knows the difference between Zarbon and Vegeta (1.09-1.14) and of Kiwi (1.33). With the former, Zarbon looked like he was standing STILL despite moving with his best efforts. If a car is going 60mph on the freeway and passes another car going, say, 25, they'll certainly look like they're "standing still" as you zoom right past them. That's relativity for you~.

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Madness

Yes, he could. With more power he could probably escape the Earth, but that would be a rather stupid thing to do really.

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Originally Posted by ANB This is an uneducated assumption. I've seen guys that lift weights 6 hours a day and they can manage to squate a thousand lbs. Hmm, I wonder why they can't jump like Lebron...or even me...

And your last quote completely undermines this one. This is fiction. We've seen Goku do it, so therefore it's possible in that universe.

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Originally Posted by ANB Why? Because of the radius...? That's wrong because Kaio commented that he could already jump pretty high. It [The gravitational attraction] doesn't go out nearly as much as Earth's but it's still 10x stronger. That's why a ship would need to be even faster.

And...? Yes, the ship would have to be stronger, but not for very far. Logically, due to the smaller size of the planet, the reach of gravity will be less.

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Originally Posted by ANB I'd rip you a new one if this was your main point.

Oh grow up.

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Originally Posted by ANB Since Toriyama decided to frequently use math in his story...? He even hints at differences through the characters reactions.

And Toriyama stopped using them did he not? And why did he stop using them? Because they interfered with his storytelling. That is why I have such a problem with using maths and calculations over the manga.

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Originally Posted by ANB ...?

No, you misunderstood me. I meant give me one example of a speed - power correlation. I mean that you must prove that your mathematics are correct and that both speed and power do increase at the same rate. Saying that "power and speed both raised" doesn't mean squat. It simply means that they both went up. It doesn't mean that they both went up to the same degree.

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Originally Posted by ANB I see you have you to find a flaw in my math.

Yes. There isn't enough of it.

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Originally Posted by ANB Probably the entire forum knows the difference between Zarbon and Vegeta (1.09-1.14) and of Kiwi (1.33). With the former, Zarbon looked like he was standing STILL despite moving with his best efforts. If a car is going 60mph on the freeway and passes another car going, say, 25, they'll certainly look like they're "standing still" as you zoom right past them. That's relativity for you~.

And I completely oppose that. Why? Because there isn't enough evidence to prove that that difference is valid. It could simply be an isolated incident.

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ANB

1-You are completely wrong about the escape velocity issue. I don't think it's a coincidence that Jupiter's is far ahead of Earth's and at the same time it has a larger gravitational pull. And don't forget about white dwarfs: They are as small as moons and still retain the same gravitational attraction.

2-Yes, how far you'd have to travel and the planet's reach is smaller but the gravitational pull also happens to be ten times stronger.

3-"We've seen Goku do, therefore it's possible in that universe"--I could have sworn we were attempting to apply real-world physics; and they are in this case. Simply "being stronger" doesn't mean you're going to jump higher. Shaq is probably one of the strongest men in the NBA but can he jump very high...? No, it takes practice and natural talent. I'm just refuting you claiming it only has to do with Goku getting stronger. And jumping that high apparently has to do with both practice and speed because he and Kuririn both jump higher as soon as they take off their shells (which was weighing them down).

4-I never said the increase of speed was parallel with the increase in power. If you were paying attention, you'd know I said someone twice as strong is more than twice as fast because the difference between Zarbon and Vegeta is far less than two and Vegeta would have to be multiples of times faster than him to demonstrate relativity ("standing still").

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Madness

What are you on about? Jupiter has a much larger gravitational field and is much larger, of course it's gravity is stronger. And a White Dwarf is a friggin' star that is much, much, much more dense than it's size shows.

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Originally Posted by ANB 2-Yes, how far you'd have to travel and the planet's reach is smaller but the gravitational pull also happens to be ten times stronger.

Yes, it is. But all you have to do is leave the reach of the gravity. I think we're arguing the same thing here.

Yes, it's stronger. But Goku doesn't have to jump as far. It kinda equals out a bit.

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Originally Posted by ANB