Madness

No it doesn't. Are you stupid or is it just a screen that you like to project?

The radiation would kill Goku. The physical force of the blast probably would not kill him, but the radiation would. The heart virus shows that Goku is just as vunerable to diseases like anyone else. Radiation sickness would be no different.

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Final Ultima

Your off topic AGAIN....DBZ characters move at FTL speeds, ANB's quote proves that!

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Madness

You took me off topic.

And no, ANB's post doesn't prove that at all. It just means that they were moving faster than the human eye can move. That's not light speed.

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Final Ultima

Your right, it was said to be HYPER SPEED (FTL)!!

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Chibi Mystic Gohan

Not only do I not understand where you got it in your head that "hyper speed" means faster than the speed of light, but in the Japanese manga, Piccolo only said they were moving at a "high speed."

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

Madness

lol, I like the way that you broke their "evidence" down with a single sentence.

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Final Ultima

Well good, I am glad that got cleared up.

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ANB

A nuke would not kill Goku.

Calculating their speed is easy since we know even being 1.09x stronger makes you unbelievably faster. They would attain the speed of light and it goes to show how hard-headed you are if you cannot accept that. If it were flat-out STATED they were, would we be having this discussion???

@Chibi: I don't trust your Japanese. Not when you suddenly have an answer to every single one of my quotes. On top of that, I could care less really. Viz is an official translation company. Are you gonna try and tell me there is no word for "hyper" in Japanese...? I wonder what they call Hyper Sonic over there...:O

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Were they created by nothing? Or were they them­selves the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create heaven and earth? Nay, but they are not sure.

(52:35-36)

Vagrant Lustoid 2

They probably call him Hypora Soniku or something. I thought Sonic was spelt with romaji in Japan. Anyway, high speeds =/= hyperspeed =/= definitively faster than light.

If it were stated, we would not argue it, because that would be an undeniable canon fact and I would accept it. But since there is no canon statement or proof that they can break the laws of physics, there's no reason to assume they can.

And Goku is not invincible. A nuke would kill him. Radiation would wipe him out. It doesn't have to be physical force to be deadly. Chi blasts contain no known radiation, so saying that he can survive being hit by one doesn't mean he can survive a nuke. The heart virus proved he can get sick, so there's no reason to assume radiation wouldn't damage him. That's yet another assumption you make without any actual evidence.

Also, why is it so hard to understand? A hummingbird's wings move so fast that we see only a blur, and if they sped up we'd see nothing, but they wouldn't be going at light speed. Eyes have a reactionary framerate and neural pathways have a neuro-chemical limitation to how fast that information can be processed, so if you're fast enough to move between the reactionary framerate and perception relay, then it would appear that you are invisible and/or not moving. This is a simple concept, and explains perfectly well why the Z fighters cannot see the death beam and the like, without having to deal with breaking physics and the unfathomable consequences of that.

Basically, it comes down to parsimony and occam's razor. Even if you ignore the evidence that we've presented, you can't ignore the fact that no physics-breaking is shown to happen, or that we have no idea what would happen if you did go beyond light speed. Thus, the simplest solution is that they didn't go faster than light, and until there is a definitive statement or action that proves this wrong (someone saying they go faster than light with reasonable proof, not just some cocky remark or the like, or someone flying from the Sun to Earth in six minutes when light takes 8 minutes to arrive) we can't assume that it's wrong.

I've said it once, I'll say it again. When debating the unknown you can only ever apply the known. Thus we have to apply our own physics in areas where there hasn't been any cases of other physics being shown. And moving faster than light falls into that category. So this is not a cop-out in a debate, it is actually one of the core principles of debating. If we don't have conclusive proof that something has happened (calculations on paper mean nothing without the supporting physical evidence) we have to apply what we know only, not random theories that defy what we know.

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Chibi Mystic Gohan

He only ran about 40 miles per hour. You somehow have his running speed clocked at 700 miles per hour.

So you're basically going to refuse to believe anything I say because I always tear your quotes apart? Lame. Here's why your reasons for not trusting my Japanese are stupid:

-I didn't "suddenly" get the answer for your quote. You posted that quote over a day ago, I posted the partial translation only 9 hours ago.

-I know the series like the back of my hand. I've read the VIZ version, the scanslations and the Japanese manga more times than I can count. Most of the time, if you just give me a line, I'll probably know exactly where to find it, just because I'm super familiar with the series. But if you give more information (like saying "Yamcha was fighting a Saibaiman, and Gohan couldn't see them move, and Piccolo says they were moving at "hyper speed"), I'll know exactly where to look. And it helps that I have the entire Japanese manga on my computer. In this case, I instantly went to investigate the line, and I found that VIZ had once again taken a liberty in their translatiion.

-What does it matter if they're an official translation company? Translation companies take liberties in their translation in order to make it more readable in English. Do you know anything about the translation process? After the translator (who I'm sure is a lot better at Japanese than I am) turns in their translation to the company, they have someone rewrite all of the dialogue into conversational English. These guys more often than not do not know a lick of Japanese. I'm just offering a more literal translation. I've been doing the same thing on this site for years, it's just that I used to use the scanslations, and later the VIZ manga.

-Plus, people complain about official translation companies all of the time. Hell, I've seen people complain about Dragon Ball's translation in just about every language it's been translated into. It's not just VIZ that takes liberties with their lines.

-Finally, do you think I just go into topics and give a fake translation so I can win some silly debate? That's ridiculous. Most of the time (i.e. not dealing with you) I'm simply helping out people who want to know the original line. See here, here and here. I don't know why there's a trust issue here. I'm kind of respected around here for a reason.

-----

Anyway, on to the line itself.



Gohan: "Th-they've disappeared!"
Piccolo: "You ass!! They're only moving at a high speed! Concentrate on the movement of their ki!! Everyone but you can clearly see them!!"

The word we're debating over is (kôsoku, literally "high speed."). I've circled it in the picture above. See it? It's made up of two simple kanji:

(kô), which means things such as "high," "tall," or sometimes "expensive."
(soku), which means "speed" as a noun, but is also used in adjectives such as "quick" or "fast."

Combined, they quite simply make "high speed." I'll direct you to Jim Breen's translation of the word. Jim Breen's dictionary is pretty much the most respected Japanese-to-English dictionary on the Internet.

That's basically all I have to say. Do with this information what you will.

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

gad_is_here

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Feed me rep, or feed me Pizza

ANB

Quote:

And Goku is not invincible. A nuke would kill him. Radiation would wipe him out. It doesn't have to be physical force to be deadly. Chi blasts contain no known radiation, so saying that he can survive being hit by one doesn't mean he can survive a nuke. The heart virus proved he can get sick, so there's no reason to assume radiation wouldn't damage him. That's yet another assumption you make without any actual evidence.

Cell was unscathed after being showered with missles.

1) You're exactly right: we don't know what would happen if we went beyond light-speed. Scientists are the ones speculating, not me.

2) It has been proven wrong. The math shows that they'd have a given speed at a given power-level, and that they would eventually move faster than light.

Quote:

Gohan: "Th-they've disappeared!" Piccolo: "You ass!! They're only moving at a high speed! Concentrate on the movement of their ki!! Everyone but you can clearly see them!!"

Alright, I was just testing your credibility. As for the line, I was just pointing out how Madness and Lustoid claimed we "wouldn't be able to see anyone" moving faster than the speed of light and there you have it...

1-Bukujutsu is far faster than running. If Roshi were flying he'd be approaching 700 mph. Why...? Because his arms can move fast enough to do so. And Goku:



...Is dodging machine gun bullets with his whole body. Again, bukujutsu>>>running (which isn't a good reflection of their over-all speed). Goku tried to get back to Earth on Snake Way and knew running would take forever, so he jumped and knew that would take forever so he flied. Guns fire up to 500 mph and standard rifles 1,000. If Goku, with a power-level not even in the thousands, can fly 500 mph and you only need to be 1.09x stronger to be lucidly superior in speed (which correlate) you can calculate their speed.

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Were they created by nothing? Or were they them­selves the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create heaven and earth? Nay, but they are not sure.

(52:35-36)

Madness

Not missiles, nuclear warheads. There's a slight difference, and you've changed nothing with that point.

We said that the force wouldn't kill them. We said the radiation would.

L2Read.

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ANB

"Nuclear"

^Isn't that what makes the radiation so deadly...? And Freeza survived a planetary explosion. That>>>A puny atomic bomb that barely even covers the radius of a city.

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Were they created by nothing? Or were they them­selves the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create heaven and earth? Nay, but they are not sure.

(52:35-36)

Madness