ANB

Regarding Burter, Goku was faster because of his gravity training. And Burter was only so fast because it was his specialty (Gurd had psychic powers, Ginyu switched bodies etc.). They were stated to be mutants so he was apparently altered at the genetic level to be super-fast. As a result, this does not contradict the law of increasing speed along with power as stated by Vegeta and power-levels that are actually IN the manga.

There are actually several examples where Toriyama reiterates this principle:

-The audience being unable to track Roshi and Kuririn's movements
-Yamcha and the Saibamen moving at "hyper-speed" which could not be done by someone weaker than them. Gohan himself could not track it until he focused
-Vegeta, with a difference of 1.09-1.14 telling Zarbon he looked like he was "standing still".
-Piccolo thinking he could escape 3rd form Freeza, only to be corrected
-Vegeta being able to percieve the death beam only because he was stronger
-Goku and Cell fight. They are completely missed by the camera as "blurs" (reiteration from an old Budokai principle)
-Gohan thinking he could escape from Boo, who not only caught up to him but out-ran him.

^I think I've proven my point.

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Vagrant Lustoid 2

Speed does increase with power. Until you hit the border between sub-light and light-speed. None of those show that speed beyond light-speed is possible. And no, the death-beam one is not proof, because your eyes can theoretically adapt to speeds up to just below light speed, and that's what the beam was, until you can provide conclusive and substantive evidence that the beam was moving beyond light speed. But eyes cannot adapt to see at speeds beyond light speed. You'd get time lag, and Goku would have been killed by the beams.

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Chibi Mystic Gohan

I think both of those points prove that speed can be trained on its own. I don't think Butta was faster because of some genetic mutation, but because he worked hard on his speed. Perhaps doing gravity training of his own.

I don't think any of those prove anything relevant to this debate. It's a given that an audience of normal humans wouldn't be able to see any of the main characters well when they fight, or that characters much weaker than another character wouldn't be able to track the faster one's movements, or that a character might be able to see an attack/opponent they couldn't see before if the get stronger, etc.

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

ANB

1-I agree speed can be worked upon by itself. That's part of my point. You and a few other members tried to discredit Vegeta's statement that speed went along with power.

2-This was mostly addressing point #1. Anyway, I'd like to wright my chart that shows Freeza was moving at 200 million mph at 50%:



If I can prove their speed for a given power-level is greater than the speed of light, then it doesn't-matter if they defy the laws of physics. How many times have I said that...? The math speaks for itself and Dragonball has both kept faithfull to the laws of physics AND defies them left and right. This ("unrealistic", "unscientific") is not a good arguement.

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Final Ultima

ANB was "Hyper Speed" an actual quote from the series?
Do you care to post the entirety of the quote?

Quote:

-Vegeta, with a difference of 1.09-1.14 telling Zarbon he looked like he was "standing still".

Was "standing still" an exact quote also? Do you mind posting it?.

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Chibi Mystic Gohan

What he says is, and I quote: "With an increase in battle power comes an increase in speed, too." I never denied that speed increases with an increase in strength, I was stating that a person who is twice as strong (i.e. some with a battle power of 2,000 vs. someone with 1,000) isn't necessarily twice as fast. The Goku/Butta/Ginyu thing itself proves that a stronger character isn't always faster, but it also proves that someone with the same battle power won't always be the same speed.

For instance, if there was a time that Ginyu's max power was at 50,000, his speed was still nowhere near Butta's (whose power is in the 40,000-50,000 range most likely), as he wasn't even as fast as Butta when he was at 120,000.

There's no strong evidence to support these speeds, due to this simple fact:

Kame-Sennin ran a hundred meter dash in exactly 5.6 seconds (Dragon Ball chapter 28). That's exactly 17.8571428571429 meters per second. Plugging that number into this handy meters per second-->miles per hour converter, that means he can run exactly 39.945290929543006 miles per hour.

His hands may be able to react at 700 miles per hour, but his legs can't carry him that fast.

(As a side note, you may be able to calculate Goku's running speed when he ran the Serpent Road in 6 months, with a battle power of 416. I'm too lazy to look up all of the relevant information.)

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"Words don't exist so that we can tell the truth; they exist so that we can conceal the truth"
- ZOMBIEPOWDER. Volume 02

ANB

^I wonder how fast something needs to move to escape human eye-tracking...?

And running =/= flying at your top speed; nor is running a complete indication of how fast someone can go. They'd inevitably fight at the speed of light; since their hands move 700 mph with power-levels barely over a hundred (Which is what really matters). Multiplying Roshi's speed with people 1.09x stronger than him once again proves that they eventually surpass the speed of light. That much is certain.

Yes, they do actually use that term. It refers to whenever they explode and start exchanging blows ("popping" effect) at high-speed that normal eyes cannot track (even Gohan's without staying focused). They are seemingly in another dimension:

Gohan: I-I can't see them!
Piccolo: Fool! They are in hyper-speed! (Paraphrase)

I don't have that graphic-novel. I remember him actually saying he looks like he's standing still. Go ahead and check.

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Final Ultima

Do you have a scan of this?
Cause you know with this evidence alone you crush everyone's argument here!!!

Quote:

I don't have that graphic-novel. I remember him actually saying he looks like he's standing still. Go ahead and check.

I can't check, I don't have that novel either but your other quote proves your claims!

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Vagrant Lustoid 2

Actually, he can't, since it's never explained what hyper-speed is, and thus never any conclusive proof that this means 'beyond the speed of light'. Unless you seriously want to claim that everyone since Raditz has been able to move beyond the speed of light.

Actually, it is, becayuse of course as they get stronger they get faster, which means that it is impossible for them to not attain a speed beyond light, mathematically on paper. Since you could use maths to show that an accelerating object in space should eventually pass beyond the speed of light, this must mean it will, right? Wrong. Science shows that matter cannot break this barrier, and until the manga conclusively shows that I don't have to accept that the maths are true. Theory and practice are very different things.

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ANB

It. Doesn't. MATTER.

They have continually defied the laws of physics. You can't ignore the fact that they WOULD eventually gain this speed (probably during the Freeza saga even). We know Freeza's power-level was a hundred million. My calculations will probably be accepted by anyone who follows power-levels. "It's unrealistic" is a cop-out arguement. To cop-out in a debate this heavy is even worse than using an IPD arguement.

We know Goku can survive a nuclear explosion because he has withstood blasts that do just as much (and in some cases, greater) damage than a nuke. We know how fast Roshi ran doing the math. It doesn't freaking matter if it's scientifically impossible.

@Final Ultima: We have no clue how fast hyper-speed is. We just know untrained eyes cannot follow them at that acceleration. In fact, they are invisible. Wasn't it mentioned on this thread that if someone were moving faster than light you "couldn't see them"...? :O

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Final Ultima

No, Hyper speed automatially mean faster than light movement in fiction! ANB wins the thread with that quote alone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANB @Final Ultima: We have no clue how fast hyper-speed is. We just know untrained eyes cannot follow them at that acceleration. In fact, they are invisible. Wasn't it mentioned on this thread that if someone were moving faster than light you "couldn't see them"...? :O

Hyper speed is FTL movement, hence why Piccolo emphasizes on sensing their Ki! YOU WIN THE THREAD WITH THAT QUOTE ALONE!!! Hell, Freeza's damn death beam was so fast it was invisible to the eye! How in the world is a BEAM going to be invisible to the eye! It means that it was moving at FTL speeds!

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Madness

Yes, but that is canonical fact, when we don't know the outcome, we have to assume they're the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANB We know Goku can survive a nuclear explosion because he has withstood blasts that do just as much (and in some cases, greater) damage than a nuke. We know how fast Roshi ran doing the math. It doesn't freaking matter if it's scientifically impossible.

It's a different type of energy, so it's different. The radiation would kill Goku.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANB @Final Ultima: We have no clue how fast hyper-speed is. We just know untrained eyes cannot follow them at that acceleration. In fact, they are invisible. Wasn't it mentioned on this thread that if someone were moving faster than light you "couldn't see them"...? :O

Actually, I was wrong. The image of the person would lag behind where they actualy were. They wouldn't be invisible. Just not where you see them.

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Final Ultima

This is probably the worst post by far on this forum ever. A Nuke would kill Goku? Bwhahhwhahwhahhwhahhwa

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