Madness

So instead you make some crappy excuse?

Look; Super Saiyan was the greatest thing around at that point in the manga. Kaioken wasn't even close! To say that "oh he forgot it" is just lame. Face up to it; you're wrong.

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uki1234

I'm not making any excuses. Its clearly shown that Goku got his power in base much increased compared to the one at the beginning of his fight against Frieza. Stop being so strongheaded and accept it, since even a baby can see it.


It ain't lame. Its reality. With SSJ stuff Akira completely left zenkai, tails and kaioken behind... How can't you comprehend it?

Madness

No, I'm not being strongheaded. I'm being reasonable. The Zenkai would have to be ASTRONOMICAL. And with no reason as well.

Look at it from this perspective:

SSJ was supposed to end DBZ. It was supposed to be the most powerful thing ever. Goku didn't need any more power - he had all of the power he needed! He was the Legendary Super Saiya'jin!

He didn't need a Zenkai. The power of a Super Saiyan was amazing at that point in time. Akira Toriyama wasn't expecting to have to work with it at any further point. This was meant to be the one and only time we saw it - Super Saiyan was fucking IT! It made Goku powerful enough to kill Freeza!

There is no evidence of healing. There is no evidence of a Zenkai. Kaioken was left behind because it was useless. Why? Because Super Saiyan surpassed it. The same with Oozaru and tails. They didn't need them anymore. Super Saiyans were all the power they needed. Zenkai's were never mentioned again, for whatever reason this was. Personally I think it was because they were never needed again.

Please, understand me. See it from my viewpoint. I can see why you want this so badly, but it's not the truth mate. It isn't possible.

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uki1234

I cant help but to laugh a little bit at how you always conveniently try to evade the fact that there is a proof that Goku got his base power increased, so there is a Zenkai. There was healing effect when he went SSJ, and thats clearly shown as well.

The evidence of healing is that Goku could even stand without help of others, for gods sake.

"The Zenkai would have to be ASTRONOMICAL"

Are you nuts? They are astronomical. The first Goku's zenkai was over 33 times(from 90,000 to over 3,000,000)

Maybe you forgot to notice what Vegeta said that the legend said that a super saiyan in base would surpass all limits. And Vegeta was pretty close to Goku's base(Frieza fight - before SSJ) after second zenkai.

I dont want any of this badly. I am just being rational.

Madness

Vegeta never said that. You pulled that out of your arse.

There was no healing. Goku was revitalished by hatred and by the transformation. That isn't healing, that's more an adrenaline rush.

Look at the scene before the transformation. Goku is STANDING after Freeza wounds Piccolo. He is STANDING on his own after Krillin is killed. He hadn't transformed then, so no "healing" could have taken place. Goku was overcome with hatred, anger and the new power of a Super Saiyan. He wasn't "healed".

The Zenkai's were astronomical I concede that, but they were for a reason; they were a plot advancer. Vegeta needed to be strong enough to fight Freeza = Zenkai! Goku needs to be stronger really quickly = Zenkai!

There's no tangible reason for a Zenkai post-Super Saiyan transformation. Toriyama didn't need for Goku to have a boost; he had already just given him one!

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Evil Vegeta

I'm leaning more towards what Madness just said as well. Goku was overwhelmed with anger and hatred for Freeza; along with overflowing with a tremondous amount of power. He was too powerful and pissed off to let his thrashing from Freeza have any influence over his battle.

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"ANB's Subordinate"

uki1234

I dont want to continue any further pointless discussion if you continue evading a proof that Goku got his base power increased,

Vegeta said that a super saiyan would surpass every limit known, and the legend had known only of saiyan in base.

"There was no healing. Goku was revitalished" Noticing any inconsistency?

Adrenaline rush cant help you when you cant move. If Goku could move he would try to evade death beam that Piccolo got instead of him. Its called common sense. Maybe you should start using it cos I don't intend on teaching you that 2+2=4.

Madness

Adrenaline can keep you going when you've got a spear in your chest. There are stories of soldiers going on with grevious wounds, and then dying as soon as the adrenaline wears off. Adrenaline is basically a super-drug. It gets you going.

Nobody knew what a Super Saiyan was, so that logic is flakey to say the least. A Super Saiyan would exceed every boundary, but to say that his base increased because of that statement is sheer lunacy!

I see no inconsistency. Goku was revitalised by his depth of feeling, and by his newfound powers. That was no healing. Healing would've gotten rid off all the marks on him too. Had he been healed, we would have seen some indication of this in a panel by showing his wounds disappearing.

I am not evading proof. I am disproving your theories. Here's one you haven't answered.

You say Goku was "healed" by the transformation and that is why he could stand unaided. Well before the transformation, he seen standing on his own before and during the transformation. So unless his rage has some magical healing property too, you have no case.

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Evil Vegeta

Goku's base power increased because of him reaching SSJ, no zenkai. It's also absurd to put him at 50,000,000 for his base, because even if he did receive a zenkai (which he didn't) it wouldn't boost his power by that much.

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"ANB's Subordinate"

uki1234

Adrenaline rush lasts shortly if you haven't noticed. Goku was in physical condition like nothing happened. If it was only adrenaline rush, then when he was smiling later when Frieza go to 100%(obviously no adrenaline rush and anger) he would be barely moving. So you are wrong about it.

Revitalized = Healing as far as I know

"Healing would've gotten rid off all the marks on him too"

No. Vegeta had marks on him even though he got senzu afte Ginyu fight.

"I am not evading proof" - Yes you are.

He was barely standing. There is a big difference.

uki1234

Nope.

What is absurd is that he could dodge disc of someone who's at least 33 times stronger than himself (Frieza 100% worn out compared to base Goku in the beginning of the fight)

Evil Vegeta

It also help's when Freeza yell's at Goku before he actually throw's the disk, too. If winded Freeza compared to base Goku at the beginning of the battle, how is he 33x more powerful, then?

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"ANB's Subordinate"

uki1234

Goku only reacted when he sensed disc's ki, so he didn't hear Frieza's screams.

Madness

Whatever. Revitalised is just a word I was using. I'll use a different word if you like.I'm not having my own words twisted against me.

Then that's a plothole. Senzu's heal all battle scars. Hell, one bean healed a gigantic fuckin' hole in Yamcha's chest!

I'm evading no proof. I'm poking gigantic bloody holes in yours.

He stood on his own. He couldn't even stand before. And those are your own words. I'm twisting them on you, not nice is it

Either negate my proof that he didn't, or admit your loss.

He was standing, whereas before he was being supported by Krillin. He was standing straight up, accessing levels of power far beyond that he had ever achieved before.

EDIT: Does noone think it possible that Freeza missed?

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uki1234

Its obvious that you finally stop talking about Adrenaline Rush , so in a clear way, you admitted defeat. I'm not going to replay to your last comment, since there is nothing worthy of discussion, just bunch of nonsense.